Monte Cooks WoD is for 3.5

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

...which for some reason has pictures of women in their underwear. Actually, don't fix it, just post a NSFW notice!

Amazon's front page is dynamically generated and based in large part on the cookies on your computer and your account there. If you're seeing women's lingerie there, you're not typical.

 

[mmu1]

That's interesting. I had an opportunity to play in a brief nWoD campaign, fairly recently, and was glad I did. That was just core + Second Sight (player-side).

Which subsystem was it that you found wanting?

My biggest issue? The fact that many of the conflict resolution mechanics pit the attacker's attribute+skill pool vs. the defender's single skill or attribute. Who went first and how many re-rolls your Willpower allows you to make matters more than relative skill levels.

I know this issue definitely comes up in combat and when using vampiric disciplines (I only played in a Vampire game that used the nWoD system) but I'm not sure if it comes up in opposed contests of skills.

Second, while I actually like die pools, I don't think a system as simplistic as nWoD actually has any need of them.

Most die pool systems that use variable Target Numbers produce results that are very difficult to replicate using the simple die roll + modifier system, but the nWoD, with its set TN, could have safely converted to d20 or 3d6, or 2d10 (+mods) - the only reason they kept the die pools is because they're a sacred cow... and all that really accomplishes is the slowing down of the gameplay by greatly increasing the amount of time it takes to make and read each roll.

Third, based on my recollection, the system was - because of its precarious balance - extremely susceptible to abuse, powergaming and min-maxing. I make an effort to play with people who avoid that sort of thing, so it's usually not an issue, but I'd much rather play a good system with people who won't try to absue it.

Fourth, physical combat itself was dull and slow. It seems to me like anything involving two opponents that weren't wildly mismatched ended up playing out as an endless series of flesh wounds as the damage tracks got whittled down a point or two at a time, and any tactical options you might choose were just window dressing. Again, who went first seemed to be the most important thing.

There were more, but it's been a while since I played...

 

[Nightchilde-2]

Fourth, physical combat itself was dull and slow. It seems to me like anything involving two opponents that weren't wildly mismatched ended up playing out as an endless series of flesh wounds as the damage tracks got whittled down a point or two at a time, and any tactical options you might choose were just window dressing. Again, who went first seemed to be the most important thing.

As opposed to two opponents inflicting a series of flesh wounds as their hit points get whittled down a few points at a time?

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

As opposed to two opponents inflicting a series of flesh wounds as their hit points get whittled down a few points at a time?

You weren't supposed to notice that.

 

[mmu1]

As opposed to two opponents inflicting a series of flesh wounds as their hit points get whittled down a few points at a time?

What game are you referring to? AD&D 2E? Because that's certainly not how 3E or 3.5 plays, most of the time. Characters routinely take massive amounts of damage, these days, even if the HP system is specifically designed to slow down the rate at which they get maimed / incapacitated, allowing for high surviveability and high fantasy-style heroics.

Which is beside the point, anyway. (Even if it were true, d20 is not D&D. Also, how many different d20 damage models are there, some of them quite lethal?) The issue is that games like Shadowrun 3E, old WoD - and presumably, nWoD - use damage tracks instead of HP for a reason... Usually to make combat more lethal and grittier - you're either uninjured, or something quite bad has happened.

When a game like nWoD ends up with combat that's slower paced than in most systems which use HP, and combat in which gunfire results in lots of small injuries rather than outright incapacitation, you have a problem.

 

[findar]

Very interesting.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Even if it were true, d20 is not D&D. Also, how many different d20 damage models are there, some of them quite lethal?) The issue is that games like Shadowrun 3E, old WoD - and presumably, nWoD - use damage tracks instead of HP for a reason... Usually to make combat more lethal and grittier - you're either uninjured, or something quite bad has happened.

The new D20 Star Wars is using a damage track system that I suspect will show up in Unearthed Arcana II or something like it.

 

[EditorBFG]

When a game like nWoD ends up with combat that's slower paced than in most systems which use HP, and combat in which gunfire results in lots of small injuries rather than outright incapacitation, you have a problem.

This is absolutely counter to my experience. Are you sure we've played the same nWoD?

(I will say the D&D has a separation between PCs and monsters, where lower CR monsters are designed to die more quickly, is that the slow-down you mean? Because in nWoD, if you are a human investigator, you are not physically more difficult to kill than a human janitor. So the same amount of time it takes to kill you is roughly how long it takes to kill somebody else. Is this part of the problem you have?)

 

[Felon]

d20 players don't need this sort of book, we've got all the tools we need to do it already.

I don't have the time or interest to muck around at a wrok bench with all those tools. I'll take a polished final product any day.

 

[Felon]

Most die pool systems that use variable Target Numbers produce results that are very difficult to replicate using the simple die roll + modifier system, but the nWoD, with its set TN, could have safely converted to d20 or 3d6, or 2d10 (+mods) - the only reason they kept the die pools is because they're a sacred cow...

That occurred to me right away as well.

Of course, i old WoD darkness games I played, characters were perfectly willing to try anything with a skill they could roll five or more dice on--after all, a zero ain't that hard to get on that many dice.