Monte Cooks WoD is for 3.5

[johngamermage]

I'm encouraged to buy it because Monte Cook & Sean Reynolds.

 

[Imaro]

My biggest issue? The fact that many of the conflict resolution mechanics pit the attacker's attribute+skill pool vs. the defender's single skill or attribute. Who went first and how many re-rolls your Willpower allows you to make matters more than relative skill levels.

Yeah defense is based on Dex or Wits, but it can be doubled by actively dodging...increased through spenditure of Willpower, etc. I think what your missing is that it's only one attribute because it's like having automatic successes, ie it is always active and there is no chance to be left totally defenseless(except in special circumstances) or to get a dramatic failure on your defense, an attacker can roll no successes or even a dramatic failure.

I know this issue definitely comes up in combat and when using vampiric disciplines (I only played in a Vampire game that used the nWoD system) but I'm not sure if it comes up in opposed contests of skills.

No opposed skills are almost always attribute+skill(Dex+Stealth) vs. attribute+skill(Wits+Stealth or Composure).

Second, while I actually like die pools, I don't think a system as simplistic as nWoD actually has any need of them.

Most die pool systems that use variable Target Numbers produce results that are very difficult to replicate using the simple die roll + modifier system, but the nWoD, with its set TN, could have safely converted to d20 or 3d6, or 2d10 (+mods) - the only reason they kept the die pools is because they're a sacred cow... and all that really accomplishes is the slowing down of the gameplay by greatly increasing the amount of time it takes to make and read each roll.

Okay, how do you replicate the Dramatic Failure rule, the Chance Roll & the 10 again rule without dice pools?

Third, based on my recollection, the system was - because of its precarious balance - extremely susceptible to abuse, powergaming and min-maxing. I make an effort to play with people who avoid that sort of thing, so it's usually not an issue, but I'd much rather play a good system with people who won't try to absue it.

Never had this problem with my group, the caps on attributes(through double cost) and abilities (through double cost) at character creation +no bonus points really didn't allow a min max build that wasn't fairly deficienct in other areas.

Fourth, physical combat itself was dull and slow. It seems to me like anything involving two opponents that weren't wildly mismatched ended up playing out as an endless series of flesh wounds as the damage tracks got whittled down a point or two at a time, and any tactical options you might choose were just window dressing. Again, who went first seemed to be the most important thing.

Once again my experiences differ. Firearms are deadly, combat was usually quick and painful... all it took was one or two tens to end a fight real quick. In fact I have to say IMHO the combat system fit the horror genre great. There's only 7 damage levels and as you take damage you're taking increasing penalties to actions as well

 

[Angel Tarragon]

I don't have the time or interest to muck around at a wrok bench with all those tools. I'll take a polished final product any day.

ditto.

 

[Campbell]

When a game like nWoD ends up with combat that's slower paced than in most systems which use HP, and combat in which gunfire results in lots of small injuries rather than outright incapacitation, you have a problem.

In the case of a Vampire against Vampire gun fight this is the expected result. Vampires take bullets like ordinary people take punches since their organs are no longer vital. It is an altogether different story if knives or swords are used since those weapons actually tear through flesh.

 

[Jim Hague]

In the case of a Vampire against Vampire gun fight this is the expected result. Vampires take bullets like ordinary people take punches since their organs are no longer vital. It is an altogether different story if knives or swords are used since those weapons actually tear through flesh.

Uh, no. Bullets, particularly large-caliber ones, rip tunnels and holes in flesh. Moreso if you're dealing in crazy stuff like hollow-points and Glaser rounds, doubly so if you have something like large-ought shot in a shotgun. Automatic weapons do this quickly. The idea that, somehow, the undead are immune (effectively) to bullets but not knives and swords is...amusing.

It's easy to cripple someone, anyone, by dint of the fact that those 'non vital' muscles and bones get broken, torn and reduced to pulp by little slugs of metal. Sure, they wouldn't bleed, but that's a relatively small concern when a bullet blows a hole the size of a saucer in you.

It's a conceit of the world that exists pretty much to ensure that vampires can laugh at the mortals they're supposedly afraid of, and it's weak sauce. Even I Am Legend had a better (if still ridiculous) explanation of why bullets don't work.

 

[EditorBFG]

It's a conceit of the world that exists pretty much to ensure that vampires can laugh at the mortals they're supposedly afraid of, and it's weak sauce. Even I Am Legend had a better (if still ridiculous) explanation of why bullets don't work.

You may be right, but it would seem wrong for vampires to be afraid of guns, wouldn't it? I mean, they're not afraid of them in any significant source material I'm aware of.

 

[Moon-Lancer]

but one good thwhack to the neck with a long sword, and you got one dead vampire.

 

[EditorBFG]

but one good thwhack to the neck with a long sword, and you got one dead vampire.

Exactly. Vampires allow modern guy to use sword instead of gun, and is good.

 

[Old Gumphrey]

So as soon as someone explains why this can't blow a vampire's neck (and head) completely off I'll buy it. I'm with Jim Hague, modern firearms DESTROY. I'm all about a vampire hunter taking a greatsword to some necks, but the cold reality is that 50 caliber sniper rifles will decapitate ANYTHING. The vampire's advantage lies in magic, speed, skill, trickery, and things like that, not actually having flesh capable of withstanding this level of force.

I'm not especially excited about this game. Trying to play core D&D with level adjustments is already wonky and unbalanced. Compare a level 5 pixie fighter to a level 9 human wizard, and there's really no comparison. A vampire's got a what, +8 level adjustment? So level 4 vampire fighters are rolling with level 12 human sorcerers? I figure there won't be D&D style magic, but still. Unless there's a few big changes in how the LA system works, this game is going to flop on its face. I'm not about to drop $35 just to hope to be able to cannibalize it.

Hopefully it'll be better than I think.

On a scale of suck to awesome, I give it a meh.

 

[Aus_Snow]

A vampire's got a what, +8 level adjustment?

In D&D 3e, the answer will often be "yes".

I expect they'll be quite a bit different in this book, though. More varied, more interesting, more detailed, and yes, far more playable. After all, the general idea seems to be that players will be playing vampires, demons, werewolves, whatever. And I imagine Monte Cook has therefore put some thought into the playability of said beings (plus whatever else is available for PC use).

Vampires in D&D, on the other hand, are very much not recommended (in the core books, or anywhere else that I've seen, in WotC sources) as PC material. So comparing them is probably not going to prove fruitful.

But I suppose we'll still have to wait and see, with regards to that, and any other issues people might be concerned about.


IME so far, nWoD makes a very good system for playing humans, or slightly augmented humans, in a modern supernatural setting. I haven't had a chance to try out VtR, WtF, MtA etc., but I am of the mind that Monte Cook's take on the WoD will appeal to me more than any of those would. And for "modern D&D", I'd much rather stick with d20 Modern (especially with the supplement 'Postmodern: Fantastic Classes' and a couple of others), or maybe True20. Hey, I'd even dig out Shadowrun if someone was to insist.

So, I remain hopeful that the McWoD will turn out to be something pretty much unique, and fun too.