D&D 5E Moon Circle Druid Play Report

[Sacrosanct]

Honestly, I haven't played with the barbarian yet, so I can't say what it's like at the table. But it seems like a very strong ability, and may need a nerf. Although resistance is less potentially game-breaking, because unlike with free hp you are taking at least some manner of lasting damage every time you're hit.

Also, the point of the game is to have fun. I deeply resent the idea that it's somehow more "adult" to just accept a broken game and work around it in play. You can be perfectly "adult" and still not want to play a clearly broken game. My mature adult table's response to seeing the moon druid was:

1) Laugh for about five minutes straight. I'm not even exaggerating, we were trying to play but we just kept busting up laughing.

2) Vow that nome of us would ever play a moon druid again, because it is clearly way messed up.

You're right again. Because that's totally an adult response...


Look, the moon druid doesn't break the game. Not even close. I'm sorry you feel it's such a huge deal, but for most people it's not. And if any PC being more mechanically powerful than you at any point during the game upsets you, then yes, I'd posit that's a maturity issue, because it's the same type of reactions I see with kids. And if you're going to throw around hyperbole by calling the game a "clearly broken" one just because of the moon druid, then don't be surprised if I consider that less than adult behavior, because I think a comment like that is so over the top it's laughable.

 

[Celtavian]

Moon Druid is pretty tough for low level. Not so much at higher level. I imagine someone that wants to play like Authweight with slower advancement, one shots, and the like will have to adjust. I don't see the need to nerf the Moon Druid for everyone's game. Low levels go by really fast. I think every class has something you could find OP here and there. Casters with sleep spell damn tough. Raging barbarian with advantage and Great Weapon Mastery damn tough. Fighters with Action Surge. Paladins able to pop people up again and again with Lay on Hands and wait to use to Divine Smite with a crit. Moon Druid being tough at low level doesn't seem like a problem in the overall game. If the opponents hammer the Moon Druid en masse, they hit it and take its hit points down pretty easy. That low AC makes them a piñata.

 

[Authweight]

You're right again. Because that's totally an adult response...


Look, the moon druid doesn't break the game. Not even close. I'm sorry you feel it's such a huge deal, but for most people it's not. And if any PC being more mechanically powerful than you at any point during the game upsets you, then yes, I'd posit that's a maturity issue, because it's the same type of reactions I see with kids. And if you're going to throw around hyperbole by calling the game a "clearly broken" one just because of the moon druid, then don't be surprised if I consider that less than adult behavior, because I think a comment like that is so over the top it's laughable.

At level 2, the moon druid broke my game. That is a fact of what happened at my table. We laughed it off because we're adults, not children, but we also recognized that the moon druid has the ability to basically nullify the combat pillar of the game at level 2. In my experience, children are much more likely to twist themselves in knots trying to justify a poor design choice, while adults will laugh at it and fix it (by houseruling, banning the problem option, or picking a different game). But that's just my experience.

 

[Celtavian]

At level 2, the moon druid broke my game. That is a fact of what happened at my table. We laughed it off because we're adults, not children, but we also recognized that the moon druid has the ability to basically nullify the combat pillar of the game at level 2. In my experience, children are much more likely to twist themselves in knots trying to justify a poor design choice, while adults will laugh at it and fix it (by houseruling, banning the problem option, or picking a different game). But that's just my experience.

Now you're being insulting. Stop trying to make it seem like the Moon Druid breaks everyone's game. We were surprised attacked by three bugbears. They hammered the Moon Druid nearly to death in one round. The Moon Druid isn't invincible. One powerful option at level 2 isn't going to ruin everyone's game. If you want to frame things in the manner you currently are, an adult realizes that not everyone has the same experience in the game. What might break your game, may be necessary for survival for another group's game or easily overlooked since many groups don't stay level 2 for very long. You're projecting your own experience on others.

I know for a fact my group was not bothered by the Moon Druid in the least. All the classes seem to have some strong options. So does the Moon Druid. I'm not sure what the problem is. Average hit points for a barbarian or fighter with a 14 Con at level 2 is 23 and 19 respectively. The Moon Druid only has around 10 more hit points. The Fighter often gets multiple attacks and does a bunch of damage with Great Weapon Mastery and the barbarian can take more of a beating when raging. Not sure what makes the Moon Druid as grossly overpowered as you seem to think it is in your campaign.

 

[Joe Liker]

Did I forget to mention that the bear moves faster than most humanoids? He's pretty good at chasing down mobiles that try to use slings.

Yes, and if they're all spread out, the bear can only kill one at a time, nullifying Multiattack in most cases.

As for exploiting his weaknesses, that comes with a whole new set of issues. First, the game is not the DM vs the players. Not all enemies will know the proper way to take down a wild shaped druid just because I do. Also, I know from experience that it sucks to have a DM build encounters to nullify a certain player. Sure, I can build a bunch of encounters where the enemies are long range and never give the druid a chance to use his shiny powers, but that isn't fair to the player. The problem with an OP character in your game is that once introduced, there really is no fair way to deal with it.

The game is not supposed to have the adversarial approach of DM vs. players, but if you are not doing your best to play their enemies as if they know how to fight, you're doing the players a disservice.

I never advocated building specifically anti-bear encounters. I only said you're not playing the enemies well in existing encounters. Kobolds have ranged weapons, and choosing not to use them against a bear is stupid. Choosing to gather around a bear in melee is stupid. Kobolds may be dumb, but they aren't that dumb.

You say you don't want to have encounters that don't give the druid a chance to use his shiny powers, but you think it's perfectly reasonable to take those powers away or nerf them into triviality? Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

As has been pointed out, every class has strengths that can render certain types of encounters trivial. It just so happens that the Moon druid's strength is one that throws a spotlight on what is a weak point for a lot of DMs -- lazy and/or inept tactics in combat.

 

[Authweight]

Now you're being insulting. Stop trying to make it seem like the Moon Druid breaks everyone's game. We were surprised attacked by three bugbears. They hammered the Moon Druid nearly to death in one round. The Moon Druid isn't invincible. One powerful option at level 2 isn't going to ruin everyone's game. If you want to frame things in the manner you currently are, an adult realizes that not everyone has the same experience in the game. What might break your game, may be necessary for survival for another group's game or easily overlooked since many groups don't stay level 2 for very long. You're projecting your own experience on others.

I know for a fact my group was not bothered by the Moon Druid in the least. All the classes seem to have some strong options. So does the Moon Druid. I'm not sure what the problem is. Average hit points for a barbarian or fighter with a 14 Con at level 2 is 23 and 19 respectively. The Moon Druid only has around 10 more hit points. The Fighter often gets multiple attacks and does a bunch of damage with Great Weapon Mastery and the barbarian can take more of a beating when raging. Not sure what makes the Moon Druid as grossly overpowered as you seem to think it is in your campaign.

Sorry, I was responding to [MENTION=15700]Sacrosanct[/MENTION] who was implying (or really stated outright) my party and I were childish because we had a problem with the moon druid. Obviously if it's not a problem at your table, it's not a problem, and you should carry on. Don't fix what isn't broken. I don't mean to imply that it's a problem at every table.

The fact it's wasn't a problem at your table, however, doesn't give anyone the right to say I'm an idiot or a child for having the problem, and it doesn't mean that some sort of fix, either from the community or from WotC, isn't called for.

To answer the second part of your post, what makes it so strong in my game is that the moon druid gets their regular hp, which is not that far behind a fighter's, plus an extra 35 twice every short rest. So if you follow the basic DM guide guidelines, the druid will have two short rests each day, meaning they can use wild shape six times. That is 210 (35*6) extra hp per day, which is ENORMOUS. Now some of this will inevitably be wasted, but even if you're able to use only a quarter of it, that's 50 extra hp on top of your regular hp. That's a lot of extra hp, particularly at level 2. It's enough that encounters that should be challenging are not, and encounters that are challenging for you are deadly for everyone else.

 

[Sacrosanct]

At level 2, the moon druid broke my game. That is a fact of what happened at my table. We laughed it off because we're adults, not children, but we also recognized that the moon druid has the ability to basically nullify the combat pillar of the game at level 2. In my experience, children are much more likely to twist themselves in knots trying to justify a poor design choice, while adults will laugh at it and fix it (by houseruling, banning the problem option, or picking a different game). But that's just my experience.

Well, I guess it's a good thing I'm not twisting myself in knots to justify poor design choice, isn't it? Obviously I can't speak to your personal experience, but it appears for most people, it's not a problem. Not a significant one at any rate. And when taken in context of the entire game, I don't think it's poor design choice at all. You're the one throwing around loaded terms like "broken game", and "nullify combat" so to me it seems as if it's you who is overreacting.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Sorry, I was responding to [MENTION=15700]Sacrosanct[/MENTION] who was implying (or really stated outright) my party and I were childish because we had a problem with the moon druid. Obviously if it's not a problem at your table, it's not a problem, and you should carry on. Don't fix what isn't broken. I don't mean to imply that it's a problem at every table.

The fact it's wasn't a problem at your table, however, doesn't give anyone the right to say I'm an idiot or a child for having the problem, and it doesn't mean that some sort of fix, either from the community or from WotC, isn't called for.

I didn't say you were childish to have a problem with it. I said your reaction was childish because it's the same sort of reaction I see with kids. And I stand by that.

To answer the second part of your post, what makes it so strong in my game is that the moon druid gets their regular hp, which is not that far behind a fighter's, plus an extra 35 twice every short rest. So if you follow the basic DM guide guidelines, the druid will have two short rests each day, meaning they can use wild shape six times. That is 210 (35*6) extra hp per day, which is ENORMOUS. Now some of this will inevitably be wasted, but even if you're able to use only a quarter of it, that's 50 extra hp on top of your regular hp. That's a lot of extra hp, particularly at level 2. It's enough that encounters that should be challenging are not, and encounters that are challenging for you are deadly for everyone else.

Ah, so we've entered into the realm of theorycrafting and not actual play. Because actual play doesn't really work out that way, for obvious reasons I shouldn't have to point out.

 

[Authweight]

It seems that we've reached the part of the internet discussion where we throw around insults until a moderator tells us to shut up, so I'm gonna back out now . We clearly don't see eye-to-eye and aren't going to, so let's just leave it at that, shall we?

 

[enigma32]

Yes, and if they're all spread out, the bear can only kill one at a time, nullifying Multiattack in most cases.

If the druid sees this battlefield ahead of him, he can always pick the giant hyena form instead. 45HP instead of 35HP, a faster speed at 50, and gives up multi-attack in favor of rampage, which allows him to get a free move AND attack if he kills an enemy. If we are talking kobolds here, that still end's up being 2 attacks per round in most cases. In fact, the hyena is a better form overall, IMO.

The game is not supposed to have the adversarial approach of DM vs. players, but if you are not doing your best to play their enemies as if they know how to fight, you're doing the players a disservice.

I never advocated building specifically anti-bear encounters. I only said you're not playing the enemies well in existing encounters. Kobolds have ranged weapons, and choosing not to use them against a bear is stupid. Choosing to gather around a bear in melee is stupid. Kobolds may be dumb, but they aren't that dumb.

I play the enemies as they are meant to be played. Kobolds are cowards that fight using a pack mentality, so they gang up on one enemy. They aren't tactical fighters, and one of the encounters in HOTDQ illustrates this by having the kobolds run around like idiots for 4 rounds while their human allies fight. I won't suddenly make all enemies fight a tactical battle like a hardened veteren because I have a druid in my party.

You say you don't want to have encounters that don't give the druid a chance to use his shiny powers, but you think it's perfectly reasonable to take those powers away or nerf them into triviality? Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

You are assuming the situation is all black or white. I will nerf the druid into the gray area. That is where he can still use his same powers, just not to quite the overpowering, devastating effect he can now.

As has been pointed out, every class has strengths that can render certain types of encounters trivial. It just so happens that the Moon druid's strength is one that throws a spotlight on what is a weak point for a lot of DMs -- lazy and/or inept tactics in combat.

Typical Internet answer. I didn't have the same experience as you, so I'm obviously a bad DM. I've noticed that quite a few people have pointed out the problems they've encountered in play with this class, and none of them did so by insulting the people who did not have such problems. Both combat encounters I ran with this druid were run according to the tactics given in the published HOTDQ adventure. Each encounter, and both were completely different by the way, was dominated by a druid who knew the enemies could not possibly kill him. Your experiences do not render mine meaningless. If you had no problems, feel free to keep running your games however you wish. Those of us who did run into problems will most likely make changes.