Moral Dilemnas in Game

[SnowDog]

I dunno, it doesn't seem to me that there's much reason for that kind of debate in a standard D&D game. At some point, a cleric must have Communed with Pelor (or whatever goody-goody deity) during such a dilemma and asked "Is this goblin/kobold/orc/whatever baby inherently evil?" and/or "Is it evil to kill this baby?"

Q: Is it evil to kill this baby?
A: No.
No, it's not evil. Go right ahead and do it, and sleep easy, low-wisdom-have-to-ask-your-god-easy-questions cleric. I doubt you will ever sit at my right hand in the afterlife, but you'll do your god's will just fine.

Q: Is it good to save this baby?
A: Yes.
Helping those who cannot help themselves is part of what makes good good. It will entail hard sacrifice to raise this baby in the ways of good, and it may just end with it turning to evil anyway, because goblins are evil! But it is certainly an act of good to try, and it warms my heart that my servant is willing to attempt it, even knowing it will likely fail.

So, you're not left wondering whether an action is good or evil, you're left wondering what you should do given the fact that there are numerous ways to handle the situation that fall under the umbrella of your "alignment" which are in conflict with each other.

That is what makes crafting complicated moral questions possible in D&D. There are many times where there are multiple "goods" to be served, and people must choose what to do. Add in the fact that party members may disagree, and you're left with some interesting situations.

To make it even more interesting, you have this entire extra axis of alignment for law/chaos. Something a lot of people forget is that a Lawful person is as devout about order as a Good person is about right.

There's tons of room for moral quandaries in D&D, even with spells like "Detect Evil" and whatnot.

 

[DMScott]

No, it's not evil. Go right ahead and do it, and sleep easy, low-wisdom-have-to-ask-your-god-easy-questions cleric. I doubt you will ever sit at my right hand in the afterlife, but you'll do your god's will just fine.

If it's an easy question, what's the point in presenting it as a moral dilemma? The answer could just as easily be "Yes. Killing any innocent is evil, you moron, how'd you get to be a full blown cleric without knowing that?" - which answer you get isn't as important as the fact that there is in fact a single, correct answer. It's hard to set up a dilemma when one of the answers is wrong.

You also missed the most important question, is the baby inherently evil, which actually gets to the root of the problem and is also a campaign-specific answer. If good and evil are absolutes - as happens by default in D&D - there's no moral component to whatever dilemma you face. It might be a test of some other aspect of the character such as their willingness to live the way their god demands, but the good/evil element is pretty much set in stone. Somebody might well say "hey, I'm not comfortable killing those orc babies", but they can't say "it's evil and wrong to kill those innocent orc babies!" if it's already established that killing babies is not evil (your easy answer above).

 

[apocalypstick]

At some point, a cleric must have Communed with Pelor (or whatever goody-goody deity) during such a dilemma and asked "Is this goblin/kobold/orc/whatever baby inherently evil?" and/or "Is it evil to kill this baby?" From then on, you've got the official precedent - heck, the church probably has it in a pamphlet to hand out to confused young adventurers.

This is goin' in my .sig.

 

[Anubis the Doomseer]

Originally posted by Hand of Evil
D&D is not a game of grey, it is a game of good and evil, that is why it has an aligiment system.

Which has its importance modified by the individual grop, and the campaign setting - hence it is not entirely writ in stone for all time.

But I do agree - the group does need to define things for themselves and stick with it.

For me, alignment is a guideline. Detect X spells only work on strongly aligned people (Paladins and Clerics for instance, and outsiders), as do other aligned rules (like the new DR, Smite Evil/Good, etc). This places everyone else in a more flexible role to live their life - they can aspire to the ideals of Good, or live their lives according to the facets fo Evil, but really, until their actions have an impact on the spiritual nature of the setting (by becoming a champion of one alignment or another) then they remain as they are.

 

[Anubis the Doomseer]

Another dilemma - created from a plot hook in the old Mystara setting of Darokin/Alfheim (where half-elves do not exist except as myth). A prostitute in the Darokin capital claims to have given birth to a half-elf child. Said prostitute also claims to be a favourite of the Elven ambassador or his son (or both) to whomever starts to pry about the father. The party includes an elf, who was raised to believe in the myth of half-elves. The PC elf is asked (quietly) by members of their clan to recover the child to determine if, indeed it is the legendary half-elf, and to do this discretely (i.e. "don't tell your human allies at all - this is an elveish matter and they would not understand").

Kidnapping takes place, accusations fly and the thing escalates into a diplomatic situation. Anti-elven bigots lynch the mother, the brothel (and local thieves guild) accuse the elves of orchestrating the kidnapping and the murder. The other PCs are brought in by local (human) authorities to investigate. Stir and simmer - the rest pretty much writes itself.

The twist? The child is not a half-elf: just a couple of minor illusions placed on the child to alter its features. The idea was to blackmail the elves for some hush money, nothing more. The mother did not know how seriously some elves viewed the matter.

For an alternate spin on this, I recommend Alan Moore's "From Hell" (comic book or movie). The moral dilemma is how to defuse the situation, and how to handle the elf PC who did nothing to betray the party and was only acting on order/personal beliefs. Is it no different than a paladin dragging the less Good/Lawful into some fool crusade? How do you stop things from sliding into a messy war between the elf kingdom and the humans - who are normally good friends.

 

[SnowDog]

If it's an easy question, what's the point in presenting it as a moral dilemma?
...
You also missed the most important question, is the baby inherently evil, which actually gets to the root of the problem and is also a campaign-specific answer. If good and evil are absolutes - as happens by default in D&D - there's no moral component to whatever dilemma you face.

Ah, sorry, I didn't make my point correctly. Let me elaborate.

Assuming the baby is innately evil, it still may be good to spare its life. You're in a situation where it is not evil to kill the baby, as the baby is evil and if left alone will certainly grow up to someday raid, pillage, and otherwise be an evil goblin. However, it may not be evil to spare the child, either. And it certainly would be good to spare the child and dedicate your life to trying to reform it, hoping that you could instill a morality in the child which could combat its innate evil.

This is the moral quandary faced by the character. Even in a world where Goblins are innately evil, there may still be a chance for redemption, even if it's one in a million. Or a billion. There are some people of strong conviction, especially those that worship gods of mercy, who would never kill the helpless goblin baby. They'd cling to that tiny hope of redemption and do all they could to make it happen, even though there is virtually no chance of it paying off.

On the other hand, slaying the infant ends an evil life, makes it less likely that future innocents will suffer by that evildoer, and frees up the Cleric from babysitting the goblin so he can go out and slay more evil as good Clerics should.

It isn't necessarily a question of the good path versus the evil path. Neither path is evil, and the question of the "greater good" is really hard to answer.

That's a moral dilemma.

(You could have the exact same discussion about a fully grown Goblin that was Slept [as the spell] during a fight with the PCs. It's just more in-your-face when it's a helpless infant and not a helpless "was trying to kill us a moment ago" Goblin.)