Most Useless Feat

[Numion]

The save improvement feats, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes and Great Fortitude (?) are a bit problematic. They're not useless, and my players usually take them at higher levels. It's just that the +2 bonus helps you only in approximately 1 out of 10 saving throws, in the sense that it's 10% probability to throw such a result that you would've failed without the feat and succeeded with the feat.

So 1 in 10 saving throws goes your way. But wait, the feat only affects a single save. I don't know what the statistics say about the overall amounts of different saves, but it's about 1 / 3 chance to get to save against the save you have the feat for.

So for one feat, you (crudely) approximately succeed in one extra save per 30 saving throw attempts. Useless? No. Almost useless? Maybe.

 

[mmu1]

The save improvement feats, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes and Great Fortitude (?) are a bit problematic. They're not useless, and my players usually take them at higher levels. It's just that the +2 bonus helps you only in approximately 1 out of 10 saving throws, in the sense that it's 10% probability to throw such a result that you would've failed without the feat and succeeded with the feat.

So 1 in 10 saving throws goes your way. But wait, the feat only affects a single save. I don't know what the statistics say about the overall amounts of different saves, but it's about 1 / 3 chance to get to save against the save you have the feat for.

So for one feat, you (crudely) approximately succeed in one extra save per 30 saving throw attempts. Useless? No. Almost useless? Maybe.

*Sigh* Some of my basic math teachers are spinning in their graves, and they're not even dead yet...

In order for the feat to increase your chances of saving by around 10%, you'd have had to been able to save 90% of the time to begin with, which means saving on a 3 or better.

If you can save on a 15 or better (not uncommon at all for fighters making Will saves, for example), your chance of saving is 30%, so having the feat add +2 actually improves it by 33%. It adds 10% to your chance of saving, it doesn't increase your chance of saving by 10%.

It might only come up on 1/10th of d20 rolls, but account for 1/4th of all successful saves.

 

[hong]

*Sigh* Some of my basic math teachers are spinning in their graves, and they're not even dead yet...

In order for the feat to increase your chances of saving by around 10%, you'd have had to been able to save 90% of the time to begin with, which means saving on a 3 or better.

If you can save on a 15 or better (not uncommon at all for fighters making Will saves, for example), your chance of saving is 30%, so having the feat add +2 actually improves it by 33%. It adds 10% to your chance of saving, it doesn't increase your chance of saving by 10%.

It might only come up on 1/10th of d20 rolls, but account for 1/4th of all successful saves.

What he said. There's a difference between increasing a save chance by X percentage points, and increasing it by X per cent.

 

[Pseudonym]

Obviously there are some skills which are uncommon since the start so I've never heard of anyone taking Skill Focus (just like I haven't seen Spell Focus (Divination/Abjuration) although it would make sense), and that's also for the +2/+2, but I can imagine for some character it could work.

I took Spell Focus (Divination) for my Diviner as a prereq for Archmage. It's only relevent for Scrying, but that one point has made the difference a few times.

 

[Felix]

Heighten is great for a save-DC increaser. Blindness is probably the best spell to do this to, but not the only one.

Useless? Yeah, Improved Overrun. Definitely. Never heard of it used.

 

[Numion]

What he said. There's a difference between increasing a save chance by X percentage points, and increasing it by X per cent.

I never said increase (I hope). Just that the feat matters in 10% of cases for the save you have it for, and about 1/30 cases for all saving throws.

 

[reanjr]

Yeah, my problem is that when we have mounted combat the mount itself doesn't ever get used for much more than a platform (higher ground +1 to attack rolls against medium creatures) and a faster pace. I just don't think anyone ('cept maybe the DM, and even then it's fairly rare) remembers that a mount is a target too.

We actually separate the mount's and rider's initiative. I think this helps alot in suppressing the notion that the mount is part of the character and doesn't need to be noted separately.

 

[reanjr]

Interesting. I personally love the 3 saving throw feats. But I agree that Toughness is weak. I use it for NPC bad guys that I am too lazy to think of anything else for, since one can take it multiple times. And the heroes are meant to be better than the villains anyhow, right?

For other silly feats, I would say improved bull rush in my games. The maneuver is too rarely useful to spend a feat on.

But the opportunity to bull rush a high level fighter off of a 1,000 foot cliff can not be overlooked.

 

[reanjr]

What?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? toughness isn't a fighter feat then it is probebly the woorst feat!

I never really saw Toughness as being useful for fighters anyway.

I see it more as a feat designed to sorcerers and wizards.

Either of those classes can get the equivilent of a level's worth of HP out of the feat (1d4 average is 2.5).

 

[reanjr]

Has anyone notice how powerful a Rogue with persuasive, skill focus: bluff, and improved feint can be? you can feint as a move action then they are denied their dex bonus to ac and sneak attack says that anytime your oppent is denied dex bonus to ac you can sneak attack.

Yes, indeed, it has been noticed and abused.