Most versatile single class

I think I'll cast a sorta-vote for the rogue (though I'd play a bard if I had my druthers). One thing that doesn't seem to enter into people's calculations makes the rogue viable, to my mind; balanced encounters.

All the stuff about rogues is true in a full-sized party. However, if the DM is making balanced encounters for just you, that means that you knock off 4 CRs before anything else is taken into consideration. That means that the toughest single opponent that you can reasonably expect to face (the equivalent of a Cr 12 encounter for 4 12th-level characters) is 4 levels below you.

Given the geometric rate of increase of virtually every important modifier in D&D, a lone character has some huge advantages that don't materialize for standard-level parties. A wizard with four levels on his opponent can consider finishing him off in melee as a viable option, simply because he's got those four bonus HD that a wizard in a larger group doesn't have the luxury of.

Now, everyone has this going for them; cross-class skills are actually useful, you can melee a greater percentage of enemies than usual for a large party, the odds of the huge bruiser who can drop you with a crit showing up are very low, and so forth. I think the rogue gets the best out of this deal, though, meaning that as a solo character his niche gains more inflation from the D&D system than any others.

For one thing, the rogue's primary weaknesses are not issues of power per se, they're problems with the results of a failed roll. Rogues do huge amounts of damage... unless they miss with their SA. They rarely if ever take any reflex-type or trap damage... unless they blow the roll. They have pretty good defenses (high Dex, half-way decent armor, usually surprise)... but an enemy blows through their hit points if they do hit. In a game where the enemies are 4 CRs below what you're used to, this chance for catastrophic failure (very concentrated in the rogue's MO) plummets. Those four levels mean that you will almost always make your Hide/Move Silently chacks, almost always save vs. attacks, almost always find the traps, etc. Perhaps most importantly, an extra 2 or 3 SA dice means that your first attack stands a vastly better chance of felling a foe than in any normal game. In a solo game, instead of having to try to drop an ogre in one SA, you'll be knifing kobolds instead. Invest in some poisons and wands using your vast-for-the-challenges wealth, and you can cover almost any circumstance.

Something also needs to be said about skills, too, the glaring weakness of the cleric and (to a lesser extent) the druid. It is in the nature of a skill check, moreso than any other, that no training means no chance. Sometimes a UMD check or a successful bout of Diplomacy are the only way to progress, something that never happens when you deal with combat situations, where everyone in D&D has some skill.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Thanee said:
Why do you, just because most players play them that way as it seems, automatically direct all of the druids potential to combat abilities!?
Educate me then, rather than merely telling me I'm wrong with no examples to illustrate your point.

I don't direct a druid's potential to combat abilities, that's what I see them as being. They don't work in social situations. They don't work as information-gathering tools. The druid has no spells to dominate or control or gather information.

In a dungeon-crawl, I'd take the druid 999 times out of a thousand. But in a hypothetical scenario where multiple avenues of success lead to the same goal, the druid is not the optimal choice.
 

Well, for one, they have Diplomacy as a class skill, so they are not exactly useless in a social situation. That skill alone is pretty good to gather some information.

With Wildshape they are extremely good at spying and tailing others, which also helps in information gathering.

The spell list has plenty spells with nice out-of-combat uses as well.

There are certainly situations, where the rogue is highly superior, mostly those where some specific skills are the best possible way to deal with them. Traps, for example, there is really no competition here. Also in social situation, the rogue is clearly better, altho the druid isn't unable to deal with such a situation, just not as good.

If, instead of the city/social situation you go into a nature/animal situation, it's not hard to see who will be completely superior, for example. Combat, also a clear winner. Need to travel fast?

The rogue is quite a versatile character for sure, I just don't think that the rogue can keep up with the cleric, druid or wizard there.

Bye
Thanee
 

Thanee said:
No healing spells!?

false life (sortof)
polymorph
planar binding
limited wish

Dunno for sure, whether summon monster can summon something with healing spells anymore, it used to be with the unicorn on the list.

Bye
Thanee
You can summon various celestial type (archons, avorals, etc) once you get up past SM IV. All of those can either heal or grant temp hp.

PS
 

[disclaimer] I like Rogues, in groups of anything from 1 to well, heaps. [/disclaimer]

But others have already covered that ground, more or less.

So, I'd like to put a bid in for Psychic Rogues.

It's a single class, and it's not a prestige class.

OK, so it's from the net, but it is from WotC, so it's official right? ;)

Tons of skill points, equal to a Bards' anyway, tons of class skills - all the good stuff, just about - with very nearly the full complement of other Rogue abilities, plus psionics for insane flexibility. Damn, that's a nice mix!

...IMO.
 

Alright. I'll be specific, as I'd like others to be.

Thanee, yes. What I said does mean implicitly that I think rogues are more versatile than druids. This does not mean that druids are not versatile. This is not a zero-sum game we're talking here. Druids versatile? Yes. Not as much as rogues.

Why?

30 Reasons:

Appraise (Int)
Balance (Dex)
Bluff (Cha)
Climb (Str)
Craft (Int)
Decipher Script (Int)
Diplomacy (Cha)
Disable Device (Int)
Disguise (Cha)
Escape Artist (Dex)
Forgery (Int)
Gather Information (Cha)
Hide (Dex)
Intimidate (Cha)
Jump (Str)
Knowledge (local) (Int)
Listen (Wis)
Move Silently (Dex)
Open Lock (Dex)
Perform (Cha)
Profession (Wis)
Search (Int)
Sense Motive (Wis)
Sleight of Hand (Dex)
Spot (Wis)
Swim (Str)
Tumble (Dex)
Use Magic Device (Cha)
Use Rope (Dex)
8+Int modifier skill points per level

Really that's the long and short of it as far as I am concerned.

Concentration (Con)
Craft (Int)
Diplomacy (Cha)
Handle Animal (Cha)
Heal (Wis)
Knowledge (nature) (Int)
Listen (Wis)
Profession (Wis)
Ride (Dex)
Spellcraft (Int)
Spot (Wis)
Survival (Wis)
Swim (Str)
4+Int modifier skill points per level

13 class skills compared to 29 class skills. And since I like the skill part of the game more than I like the spell-slinging or combat ability, skills appeal more strongly to me in class setup than other parts of the class mechanics.

There you have it.

This just doesn't really do it for me. Yeah, it has some neat options in here and room to maneuver, but not like the rogue has.
 

I'm sorry, but skill points != versatility. No matter how sneaky a rogue is, if he blows a roll or he's seen, he will be made. Once he's out of hiding in a hostile environment, he's screwed. A druid can shapeshift into a cat, dog, or raven for example, trail someone, and they wouldn't be the wiser. Seriously, how much attention do you give to a stray dog or cat? Not to mention a bird passing overhead among so many other birds. Druids are better at "sneaking around" than rogues, just because of the fact that they can become so much less inconspicuous as a non-humanoid. Also higher-level druids can disguise themselves as any other humanoid being, AT WILL! No need for disguise kits that can take several minutes to apply... Druids can even make better assassins than rogues, by shifting into a viper, crawling under a crack in a door, then biting their victim. Looks like death of natural causes, no dagger wound, garrote bruise or anything.

As others have pointed out, diplomacy can get the druid a long way in social situations. They can't bluff very well, but with the multitude of disguises of form available to them, druids can get by pretty much any situation. Besides which, if diplomacy fails, they can more than hold their own in combat, which rogues cannot do by themselves.

Let's not forget that while druids can get by in city environments, rogues can't really survive out in the wild for extended periods of time. No survival as a class skill, so when their rations run out, again they're screwed. Druids have their animal companion and shapeshifting ability to let them hunt for themselves, as well as knowledge of what is edible and what's not. I can imagine a rogue trying to figure out what is okay to eat in the wilderness, and slowly dying of starvation and/or thirst.

That is NOT versatility...
 

Felix said:
Thanee, yes. What I said does mean implicitly that I think rogues are more versatile than druids. This does not mean that druids are not versatile. This is not a zero-sum game we're talking here. Druids versatile? Yes. Not as much as rogues.

Why?

30 Reasons:

...

Really that's the long and short of it as far as I am concerned.

...

13 class skills compared to 29 class skills. And since I like the skill part of the game more than I like the spell-slinging or combat ability, skills appeal more strongly to me in class setup than other parts of the class mechanics.

There you have it.

This just doesn't really do it for me. Yeah, it has some neat options in here and room to maneuver, but not like the rogue has.

Well, I could insert the complete druid spell list and all possible wildshape forms here, to have something to oppose those 16 additional class skills. But I guess that would be a rather long quote then... ;)

Bye
Thanee
 

Teslacoil1138:

There are 27 skills besides Hide and Move silently on the Rogue's class skill list that you are ignoring. And as much as you tout Diplomacy, the Rogue can get a total +4 synergy to Diplomacy from both Sense Motive and Bluff easily, and with his abundance of skill points per level he can more easily afford the 10 skill points for the cross class Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty) that will give him another +2 to Diplomacy. So it is that much easier for the Rogue to have +6 higher in Diplomacy that you value so highly for the Druid.

I'm sorry, but skill points != versatility.
Let me say this again so you don't miss it:

...I like the skill part of the game more than I like the spell-slinging or combat ability...

So while you don't think skill points != versatility, other folks might.

No matter how sneaky a rogue is, if he blows a roll or he's seen, he will be made.
Sure, if you send a rogue in against NPCs that have max cross-class ranks in Spot and Listen as well as a high wisdom and Alertness, you the DM will beat the rogue's player. Congrats. But Hide and Move Silently skill bonuses can shoot up so bloody fast that once the player starts taking 10 on his rolls no non-twinked guard is going to hear him, and the likelyhood of any other NPC spotting him is slim to none. Especially if he's a small character.

I can imagine a rogue trying to figure out what is okay to eat in the wilderness, and slowly dying of starvation and/or thirst.

As long as you're hawking high-level druidic powers of shapeshifting at will, allow me to introduce you to a 4000gp item I like to call Ring of Sustanance. Or perhaps you'd perfer the 2500gp Ioun Stone that sustains you without food or water? Rations are one of the last things I've ever had to worry about.

Thanee:

I could insert the complete druid spell list and all possible wildshape forms here, to have something to oppose those 16 additional class skills. But I guess that would be a rather long quote then...
At least you'd be specific if you did that. ;) Hey, like I said, I'm a fan of the skill-using classes more than the spell-caster or combat brute classes. Why? Because every single Druid has every single spell that on his spell list available to cast. Rogues on the other hand must decide between 29 class skills to make their character an individual. Seeing a druid in wildshape is vanilla. "Oh, Wow! I there's another druid that can take the shape of a viper!" I think it is more elegant to see a particular set of class skills chosen to perform a certain way do so.

I think perhaps the disagreement here is simple. I think that given any situation, (with the exception of toe-to-toe melee hacking, but sometimes even then) you can use the rogue class to build a PC that will handle the problem. I do not think that any individual rogue character is going to be able to handle every problem thrown at him as well as other classes. Solo playing was mentioned earlier... there are some jobs that individual rogues just have to say no to.

Perhaps you all are arguing the side that any druid PC is going to be able to apply himself to any situation and come away well? If that is the topic, then you are correct. Druid wins, and I'll stop making overly long posts. Any particular druid character will be more equipped to handle any random situation better than any particular rogue character. But since the thread is called "Most versatile single class" I have not been considering how individual builds would stack up to each other as much as how well can this class be applied to any given problem.

Put it this way, the only differences between one PC of a class and another PC of the same class are Skills and Feats (with an exception for the arcane caster's choice of spells).

Barbarian: Medium skills, Average Feats
Bard: High skills, Average Feats
Cleric: Low skills, Average Feats
Druid: Medium skills, Average Feats
Fighter: Low skills, Super-high Feats
Monk: Medium skills, Above average Feats (choice twixt two bonus feats)
Paladin: Low skills, Average Feats
Ranger: High skills, Above average Feats (weapon style feats)
Rogue: Uber skills, Above average Feats (Rogue special abilities)
Sorcerer: Low skills, Average Feats
Wizard: Low skills, Above average Feats

I think the Rogue's combination of Uber skills (combining both class list and skill points/level) and Above average Feat aquisition makes the Rogue class more malleable than the other classes. Because it is more malleable, it becomes more versatile.

Make sense?

orginal poster jarlaxlecq said:
He doesn't need to be the best at something but what class brings a little bit of everything to the table?

If this means "what class allows individual characters to bring everything to the table" then the argument favors the Druid. No disagreement here.

If it means "what class can bring everything to the table", then I think the rogue takes it.

Maybe I'm just taking the title too literally. :)

A party of rogues will be able to fill the 4 traditional roles and none of them will be stepping on any of the other character's shoes. Face Rogue, Mechanic Rogue, Fighting Rogue (it bloody well is possible), "Casting" Rogue. They will operate well and nobody will encroach on anyone else's schtick. A party of druids will be farily well homogenous. They will all have Spellcraft, Survival, Know(nature), Concentration, and maybe even Diplomacy. And they will be competing for the spotlight every single time something comes up because there is not as much to differentiate themselves from each other as there is between the rogues. I say this rigidity is not class versatility.

And Thanee, you underestimate yourself if you think you need spell lists to post overly-long posts. I don't need 'em! :p
 
Last edited:

Oh, how could I forget... Battle Sorcerers! (from UA).

d8's, moderate BAB, light armour - with no penalty for spellcasting!, still that huge list of arcane magic to choose from.

So, a few less spells. Oh well. :)

So far they would be my 2 choices (Battle Sorcerer and Psychic Rogue) - both from WotC. One has the skills and a bit of psionics and some nice tricks to keep oneself alive and others not so. The other has OK-ish combat abilities and survivability, with half-decent access to the (plainly) best spell lists in standard 3rd edition (that is to say, non-third-party) D&D.
 

Remove ads

Top