Movement and attacks with haste

[Caliber]

Actually I did, I just didn't comment on it.

But if you want to call my attention to those paragraphs ...

Note that there are exceptions to that rule. Cleave for example. Further note that Haste does not give you an extra attack. It instead gives you an extra Partial Action.

This Haste Partial Action is related to your common Standard and Move actions in a very limited manner, as has been outlined in posts before me. You can use your Haste Partial Action to do anything you want assuming:

1) You did not take a 5' step previously. Only one 5' step is allowed, even between regular Actions and the Haste Partial Action.

2) You did not Charge. If you did, and you wish to move in your Haste Partial Action, you must continue to move within a straight line.

3) If you began to cast a Full-Round spell with your regular Actions, you can choose to finish it with your Haste Partial Actions.

No where in there does not performing the Full Attack action come up.

 

[Mordethdenied]

So, I am assuming, according to your clarification about multiple attacks in the round with use of the haste spell that it would not fall under "special reason" on page 124 of the PHB? It sounds like an extra attack with haste would be considered a "special reason" for getting extra attacks, which would then require a full attack action in order to get multiple attacks a round.

Because, as it reads to me on that page, in order to get any additional attacks no matter the circumstances you must use a full attack action to get those additional attacks.

If a extra haste attack does not fall under "special reason", then why doesn't it?

I know that a hasted action can be more than an extra attack, but that is the context that I am using it; a partial attack. How is cleave an exception when under "special reason" it specifically states the use of a feat.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

The general consensus on the boards is that the passage you're referring to applies primarily to iterative attacks from high BAB and attacks from two weapon fighting.

Other ways of getting extra attacks have their conditions specified in them.

Attacks of opportunity occur when an opponent provokes them. They are an exception to the full action rule. (Although, like most exceptions they are not specifically listed).

Cleave can be used whenever the character drops a foe by bringing him below 0 hit points. (This is another exception that is not specifically listed).

A weapon of Speed grants an extra attack "whenever" you attack. The specified condition ("whenever you attack") takes precedence over the general full attack rule just like it does for attacks of opportunity and cleave.

Haste is another kettle of fish entirely. Haste gives an extra partial action before or after the standard action. You can use the haste partial action for anything you can use a normal partial action for. Consequently all of the following are legal:
1. Haste: partial charge. Standard action: full attack
2. Haste: cast a spell. Standard action: full attack.
3. Haste: Cast a spell. Standard action: partial attack. Move equivalent action: move
4. Standard action: full attack. Haste partial charge
5. Standard action: cast a spell. Move equivalent action: move. Haste: partial attack.
I could go on but I suspect I've made my point. The full attack rule applies to haste in the following way: it is not possible to make all your iterative attacks twice in one round because haste only grants a partial action (enough for a partial attack but not a full attack action). Therefore, you can attack at +6/+1 and use the haste partial action for another +6 attack but since you don't have a second standard action you can't make the secondary attack with the haste action.

 

[Artoomis]

1. Haste: partial charge. Standard action: full attack
2. Haste: cast a spell. Standard action: full attack.
3. Haste: Cast a spell. Standard action: partial attack. Move equivalent action: move
4. Standard action: full attack. Haste partial charge
5. Standard action: cast a spell. Move equivalent action: move. Haste: partial attack.
[/B]

You mechanics are right but a more proper way to write this is:

1. Hasted Partial Action: Partial Charge. Normal Action = Full Round Action: Full Attack
2. Hasted Partial Action: cast a spell. Normal Action = Full Round Action: Full Attack.
3. Hasted Partial Action: Cast a spell. Normal Action = Standard action: Attack + Move
4. Normal Action = Full Round Action: Full Attack. Hasted Partial Action: Partial Charge
5. Normal Action = Standard Action: Cast a spell + Move. Hasted Partial Action: Partial Attack.

A standard action is most assuredly NOT a partial action + a move equivalent action. It is an action + a move, and you may substitute a move-equivalent action for the move part.

Also a Hasted round is NOT a Standard Action + Partial Action. It is a full round's worth of actions + a partial action.

This is not just being nit-picky. Using this terminology incorrectly this will lead to great confusion down the road.

With that in mind, to help seperate the hasted round into it's two parts I created a new term - "normal action" - to mean anything you could do in a regular, non-hasted round.

 

[Mordeth]

Maybe he should change his name to Mordethdeniedincorrectly :>)

Thanks alot guys... thats where my thinking was at as well. I think what he misread and was refering to was...

----Q: If a character has multiple attacks and becomes hasted, would he only recieve one extra attack per round? What if he had two weapons? Would he get two extra attacks (one with each weapon)? What happens when a character has two weapons and uses the attack or charge action rather than a full-attack action? Does the character attack once with each weapon or just once?

----A: You can attack only once with a partial or standard action, no matter how many weapons you have. You've got to use the full-attack action (a full round action) to get any additional attacks to which you might have.

In essense, his answer was "YES". You only receive 1 extra attack from haste a round. So by this statement we can infer with haste and two weapons...

*He could standard attack, primary weapon; move; attack primary weapon <haste>

The first sentence of the answer is the key. " You can attack only once with a partial or standard action, no matter how many weapons you have." Saying that haste gives a partial move, or partial charge, or partial attack, ie 1 attack PER partial or standard action.

If they cant understand this.... Might have to bribe Mr. Williams into doing a more indepth example with examples, illustrations and such. Thanks a ton guys!

 

[Mordeth]

Something just popped into my head...

Mordethdeniedwrongly stated....

----Because, as it reads to me on that page, in order to get any additional attacks no matter the circumstances you must use a full attack action to get those additional attacks.

So to take an AoO, you need full attack option?
So to take a Cleave attack, you need full attack option?

Those two in themselves, "Break the rules" strikingly enough, just like HASTE!

And btw, I just figured out who MD is... and I agree, much better to post anon to save yourself public humilation

 

[Caliban]

I am afraid you did not read all of my text:

Now according to the PHB (p.124) under Full Attack Actions, If you get more than one attack per action because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons . . ., or for some special reason (such as a feat or magic item (or in this case, haste)), you must use the full attack action.

Note that it is talking about more than one attace per action. Haste gives you an extra partial action, so you can do one attack on that action, and one or more attacks on your normal action (if you use the full attack action).

To get any extra attacks, no matter the circumstance, you must use the full attack action. And when using a full attack action you can only move a 5 foot step.

False. To get more than one attack on an action, you need to use a full attack action. Haste gives you an extra partial action in addition to your normal action. So you could do a full attack action and an extra partial action.

He could Attack, Move (More than a 5 foot step), and take a hasted action (though it could not be another attack, for then he would have to of chosen to do a full-attack action because if you get more than one attack per action for some special reason, in this case haste, you must use a full-attack action.

Completely wrong. You are confusing attacks per action with attacks per round. You can have more than one action during a round if you are hasted, and you can use one of those actions for a full attack and one for a standard attack, or you could use both of them for a standard attack.

 

[Gromm]

Hasted Fighter Example

Ftr6 Greatsword (or any single weapon)
Heres what he can do in a round:
Move (partial-Hasted action), FullAttack (+6/+1 BAB-standard)
Single Attack (BAB+6-partial-hasted action), move, Single attack (BAB+6-standard action)
Move (single-hasted action), double move
Fullattack (BAB+6/+1-standard), Attack (BAB+6-partial-hasted)

Same fighter with two weapons/double weapon:
Move (partial-hasted), Full Attack(+6/+6/+1 BAB)
Single Attack Primary Weapon (BAB+6-partial-hasted), move, Single Primary Attack (BAB+6-standard)
Move (single-hasted), double move (standard)
FullAttack (BAB +6/+6/+1-standard), Single Primary Attack (BAB+6-partial-hasted)

As far as the cleave thing:
PHB p124-Full Attack

If you get more than one attack per action because your base attack bonus is higher enough, because you fight with two weapons...you must use the full attack option to get your additional attacks.

It doesn't say "you have to use the full attack option to get extra attacks". The system makes sense and works, how could your example possibly have made sense? How are you taking a Full Round action in the middle of an action (Cleave), or on someone elses turn (AoO).

 

[Mordeth]

It was said that the rules doesn't say "you have to use the full attack option to get extra attacks".

One page 123 under multiple attacks it clearly states that "a character with more than attack per round must use the full attack action in order to get more than one attack"

However, though it is written in the player's handbook I recently recieved a letter from a wizard of the coast reprasentative clearly states the point:

While Hasted you may make a single standard action attack, 30 foot move, and with the partial haste action, attack once again.

Thanks and Happy Gaming!
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-----Original Message-----
From: David Keller [mailto:dwkeller1@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 6:48 PM
To: Wizards Customer Service
Subject: Rules question


Please help us out with this. This has been a year long debt in my circle and its gotten to the point we need an official answer to it.

Basically we want to know if you can, when hasted, make a single standard action attack, 30 foot move, and with the partial haste action, attack once again. This is a link to the discussion that we were recently having. It includes the sage advice from dragon 280 where Skip Williams posted, to this one guy, a vague answer, that we found very simple. Any help in this would greatly be appreciated.

It has been an interesesting debate and it seems it can be all put to rest.

 

[kreynolds]

It has been an interesesting debate

Hardly. I had more fun picking out my belly-button lint while reading this thread.