MP2: Cunning Sneak/Stealth questions

[KidSnide]

I'm having a hard time reconciling this answer with Fleeting Spirit Strike, above. Is it either/or for the two rolls to become hidden? Can a rogue NOT shift, become hidden, attack, shift, become hidden?

EDIT:
Ah, here's my problem - it seems like we're applying a double standard:
(1) on the one hand, we're saying that the rogue CAN make the stealth roll, even though the rules normally say he can't, because the power says he can (making the stealth check without total/superior - heck without any cover or concealment) (whether or not he keeps hidden is irrelevant for whether or not he can make the roll)
(2) on the other hand, we're saying that he CANNOT make the stealth roll, because the rules say he can't, even though the power says he can (making a stealth check - or not, in this case - because he lost hidden status during this action).

In both cases, the power says yes, but the rules say no - and we're making opposite decisions for the two. That does not sit well. Am I misreading something here?

Under normal circumstances, you make a Stealth check at the end of a Move action.

I read "After the shift, you can make a Stealth check to become hidden." to be an exception to that rule. In other words, Fleeting Spirit Strike (and other similar powers) gives you the ability to make a stealth check during the power, which otherwise you wouldn't be able to do. For example, you can't use Deft Strike to move into superior cover and then hide because Deft Strike is not a Move Action. Fleeting Strike is better.

Accordingly, I don't think Fleeting Strike is an exception to any of the other stealth rules. So, this is how I see it working:

1) If You Start Hidden
You can use the first shift to move into position. Making a stealth check here is mostly useless because you are already hidden.

Needless pedantic complexity behind the spoiler block:
[SBLOCK]It's only "mostly useless" because maybe you're not hidden from all the enemies, so you might want a second shot at hiding from a super-perceptive enemy with some sort of immediate power.

Also, while we're getting super-pedantic, if you shifted more than 2 squares, you need to make a stealth check to stay hidden because shifting more than 2 squares triggers the "Keep Still" part of the stealth rules. However, this "Keep Still" stealth check is totally irrelevant because (1) even if you are revealed, you gain the benefit of stealth through the end of the action under the "Not Remaining Hidden" rule, and (2) you're going to be revealed anyway when you attack right now.

[/SBLOCK]
Then you can attack. Whether or not you kept cover with the initial shift, attacking ends your hidden status, but that's OK because it's all a part of the same action and you keep the benefit of being hidden.

Then you can shift again, but you can't make a stealth check because of the "Not Remaining Hidden" rule:
Not Remaining Hidden: If you take an action that causes you not to remain hidden, you retain the benefits of being hidden until you resolve the action. You can’t become hidden again as part of that same action.

If you start hidden and want to finish hidden, you need to use your move action to make the stealth check at the end of your turn.

2) You start unhidden and want to attack from hiding
If you start your turn unhidden, then you can use the first shift to move into cover (regular or superior - it doesn't matter because you're a Cunning Sneak) and then you get to make a Stealth check because the power is an exception to the normal rule.

Then you attack, same as above.

Then you shift again, same as above. If you want to end the turn hidden, you have to use your move action.

3) You start unhidden, don't care about attacking from hiding, but want to end hidden.
If you start your turn unhidden, you can also use your first shift to move into, say, a flanking position. (Or, you could just get close to a dazed guy, or use any of the many other ways of getting combat advantage.)

Then you attack. You don't gain any benefit of being hidden because you never were.

Then you shift again. If you shifted into cover (again the type doesn't matter because you're a Cunning Sneak) you can make a stealth check because the power makes an exception to the usual rule of when you can make one.

Unlike examples #1 and #2, you never fell under the "Not Remaining Hidden" rule because you had never been hidden. So, in this example you could get your attack off and then end up hidden without using a Move Action. (This could be very useful if - for example - you're dazed or needed to use your Move Action to get in range.)

-KS

P.S. Just to be clear, I'm not saying anything different from DracoSuave. I just thought it might be easier to understand if I spelled out the scenarios.

 

[Piratecat]

Super-useful. Thank you very much for laying it out.

 

[Alomir]

Thanks for the re-phrasing, KidSnide. However, I understood the end result of DracoSauve's proposal pretty well, I believe - which can be summed up as "override Becoming Hidden, but do not override Not Remaining Hidden". However, I don't think my main concern was addressed.

Under normal circumstances, you make a Stealth check at the end of a Move action.

I read "After the shift, you can make a Stealth check to become hidden." to be an exception to that rule. In other words, Fleeting Spirit Strike (and other similar powers) gives you the ability to make a stealth check during the power, which otherwise you wouldn't be able to do. For example, you can't use Deft Strike to move into superior cover and then hide because Deft Strike is not a Move Action. Fleeting Strike is better.

Accordingly, I don't think Fleeting Strike is an exception to any of the other stealth rules.

I'm sorry to disagree, but - why not?

To be clear, my concern is this: we have two situations where (a) the stealth rules say you cannot make a stealth check to hide, and (b) the power says you can; in one case, we're saying that the power wins, and in the other, that the rules win - and I don't see why they are being treated differently. In both cases, the power says, literally, "After the shift, you can make a Stealth check to become hidden"; in both cases, the stealth rules say that one cannot become hidden, due to (some reason). The two reasons here are:
* one cannot become hidden due to lack of total concealment/superior cover
* one cannot become hidden because hidden status was lost during the same action
Those aren't identical, of course, but I don't see why they are different in a way that results in us making different rulings.

Here's an example of where this gets weird (Logan is my Cunning Sneak rogue).

Case A:

   y
   ------------   <--short wall providing cover
    xB                             
                                  
     L

B=bad guy, L=Logan

Logan uses Fleeting Spirit Strike to shift to position x, strike, shift to position y, and then make a stealth check to become hidden. Logan started out in plain sight, so no problems here.

Case B:

   y
   ------------   <--short wall providing cover
    xB                             
     O
     L

Same as Case A, except that I put a big pillar between Logan and the bad guy, so Logan starts out hidden. Logan performs exactly the same move as Case A. However, he started out hidden, so according to the thoughts above, he cannot become hidden at the end. How would the presence of the pillar make a difference in whether or not Logan can become hidden after moving around to position y? If anything, starting out hidden should make it easier, not impossible.

 

[DracoSuave]

Well, I'll explain -that- pretty easily.

You can have a power that tells you to make a roll in unusual conditions. The power doesn't contradict any rule at all, in fact. Making a stealth roll at times other than a move action doesn't contradict the rule that -allows- you to make a stealth roll during move actions. It merely gives another opportunity to do such.

What you fail to notice is that the power does not contradict ANY rule. It does not try to. If it did, it would be worded like 'May a stealth check, even if you've become unhidden this action' or 'make a stealth check to remain hidden'.

These powers do not, and therefore do not have a contradiction to the rules.

Another example is if you're immobilized. Having a power that tells you to shift doesn't allow you to shift when you're immobilized.

And a more absurd example would be damage rolls. Powers don't state all possible damage bonuses that could apply; if things worked as you claim, then powers could never do more damage than stated in their text. Obviously, this cannot be the case.

'It's a power that does it' is not contradiction enough. It actually has to -contradict- the rules to not be governed BY the rule.



---------------


As for the fluff: There's two kinds of Cunning Sneak powers. Some of them require stealth, and others grant you stealth.

The first is for coming out of ambush, and the second is for going back into ambush.

You're using a power incorrectly in this instance... so you're jumping someone, and then trying to get back into hiding, when the technique is not meant for jumping out at someone. That makes its execution clumbsy.

There ARE powers, however, that allow you to jump out, hit someone, then jump back in, and they are not so clumbsy.

 

[Piratecat]

Wierd. It seems utterly bizarre to me that the same power won't let you hide if you started behind a pillar instead of in the open.

I'm seriously considering house ruling this, because I can't seem to grasp my mind around the logic. Stealth shouldn't need to be this complicated.

 

[mneme]

Hmm. You would think that a power that lets you make two Stealth checks to remain hidden (with an action that unhides you in between) would be intended to break the normal rule that you can't make a stealth check during an action where you become unhidden, wouldn't you? That feels like an explicit exception to me.

 

[DracoSuave]

Wierd. It seems utterly bizarre to me that the same power won't let you hide if you started behind a pillar instead of in the open.

I'm seriously considering house ruling this, because I can't seem to grasp my mind around the logic. Stealth shouldn't need to be this complicated.

Some powers are for ambushes.

Some powers are for going back into cover.

Most powers that are for ambushes don't hide you after. (there are exceptions)

Most powers that are for going back into cover aren't for ambushing.

Pretty simple if you think of them as techniques with uses.

Exploits are tools, think of it like martial arts kata. An attack that is for weakening an opponent isn't for distracting an opponent. Exploits can be envisioned kinda like that.

This are superhuman martial arts schticks here, not 'I walk out and hit a guy and walk back in.'

Hmm. You would think that a power that lets you make two Stealth checks to remain hidden (with an action that unhides you in between) would be intended to break the normal rule that you can't make a stealth check during an action where you become unhidden, wouldn't you? That feels like an explicit exception to me.

A power that allows you to remain hidden IS an explicit exception to the rules. The word 'remain' implies that you would normally not be hidden. Plus it doesn't even break the rule about making multiple stealth checks to -become- hidden. That stealth check is to negate the 'become unhidden' part of the rule.

However, we're speaking of a power that allows you to make a check to become hidden which is NOT an explicit exception to the rules, no more than becoming unhidden during a move action and finding yourself behind superior cover is in any way an exception to that particular rule.

 

[Piratecat]

I do appreciate you guys spending the time to help us grok this, by the way. Over and above the call of duty.

 

[KidSnide]

Thanks for the re-phrasing, KidSnide. However, I understood the end result of DracoSauve's proposal pretty well, I believe - which can be summed up as "override Becoming Hidden, but do not override Not Remaining Hidden". However, I don't think my main concern was addressed.

As DracoSuave said, that's not right. The power doesn't override any "Becoming Hidden" rule, it just provides a trigger that allows you to hide. It's like a Healing Surge trigger. Just like Second Wind lets you trigger a healing surge, Move lets you make a stealth check (at the end of your move). Healing Word doesn't override the Second Wind rule, it just provides another opportunity to spend a Healing Surge. Similarly, Fleeting Ghost Strike provides two additional opportunities to hide.

To be clear, my concern is this: we have two situations where (a) the stealth rules say you cannot make a stealth check to hide, and (b) the power says you can; in one case, we're saying that the power wins, and in the other, that the rules win - and I don't see why they are being treated differently.

Again, there is no stealth rule that says you cannot make a stealth check to hide. There is only the rule that says you can make a stealth check to hide after a move. There's no conflict.

In both cases, the power says, literally, "After the shift, you can make a Stealth check to become hidden"; in both cases, the stealth rules say that one cannot become hidden, due to (some reason). The two reasons here are:
* one cannot become hidden due to lack of total concealment/superior cover
* one cannot become hidden because hidden status was lost during the same action
Those aren't identical, of course, but I don't see why they are different in a way that results in us making different rulings.

Those are treated differently because Logan is a Cunning Sneak and the benefit of Cunning Sneak is that it lets you become hidden with only regular concealment/cover (instead of total/superior) if you moved 3 squares from your starting position. That's the exception to the normal rule. There isn't an exception to the rule about re-hiding when your hidden status was lost during the same action.

Wierd. It seems utterly bizarre to me that the same power won't let you hide if you started behind a pillar instead of in the open.

The difference is that, when Logan starts behind the pillar then he's gaining the benefit of being hidden for the whole move-attack-move. In the pillar example, Logan gets combat advantage during the attack at square "x". That's a plus which comes at the expense of not being able to re-hide (without using a move action or other power to do so).

If Logan didn't like the trade, he just shouts before attacking. That free action ends his hidden status. Then he can use his turn as if there pillar wasn't there.

I'm seriously considering house ruling this, because I can't seem to grasp my mind around the logic. Stealth shouldn't need to be this complicated.

I agree that it's a little difficult to determine the reason for this rule. I guess it prevents regular rogues from dashing from stealth through no-cover and back into superior cover without revealing themselves first? Otherwise, every rogue would have half the benefit of Shadow Stride.

That said, a house rule won't really affect much since 90 times out of a 100, Logan will have a free Move action at the end of this power if he wants to re-stealth or some other way to get combat advantage.

-KS

EDIT: Long pause mid-post. Again, agree with what DracoSuave says...

 

[UngeheuerLich]

it is simple:

with those powers you may make a hide check even if they are not move actions.

with cunning sneak you can hide in the semi open