Multiclass and power swap feats

Virindi

First Post
A 11th level primary class Cleric. Has multiclassed into (Student of Battle) Warlord multiclass. He has also taken power swap feats of novice, acolyte, and adept to get warlord powers.
Now that PHBII has come out he wants to retrain at level 12 his (Student of Battle) Warlord multi-class to (Acolyte of Divine Secrets) Invoker multiclass.

What happens to his power swap feats if he does this? Do they simply convert over to Invoker powers? Do they become blank feats, and he has to wait to retain them one at a time? Do they simply revert to his original cleric class powers? I have looked at PHB pg 28 on retraining, PHB pg 208 on multiclass, and PHB II pg 196 on multiclass, and not sure how to interpret retraining rules with the powerswap/multiclass retraing.

I apologize if this has been asked in past. If so could you link the thread.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

NMcCoy

First Post
Be nice to the player and let him switch his power-swap feats over to Invoker powers. The retraining restrictions serve primarily to maintain character continuity between levels, but because the power level is exactly the same there's no real reason to not let the player play the character he wants.
 

Virindi

First Post
Be nice to the player and let him switch his power-swap feats over to Invoker powers. The retraining restrictions serve primarily to maintain character continuity between levels, but because the power level is exactly the same there's no real reason to not let the player play the character he wants.

I am all for being nice. I just want to go by rules. I am seeking clarification.
 

Harlekin

First Post
A 11th level primary class Cleric. Has multiclassed into (Student of Battle) Warlord multiclass. He has also taken power swap feats of novice, acolyte, and adept to get warlord powers.
Now that PHBII has come out he wants to retrain at level 12 his (Student of Battle) Warlord multi-class to (Acolyte of Divine Secrets) Invoker multiclass.

What happens to his power swap feats if he does this? Do they simply convert over to Invoker powers? Do they become blank feats, and he has to wait to retain them one at a time? Do they simply revert to his original cleric class powers? I have looked at PHB pg 28 on retraining, PHB pg 208 on multiclass, and PHB II pg 196 on multiclass, and not sure how to interpret retraining rules with the powerswap/multiclass retraing.

I apologize if this has been asked in past. If so could you link the thread.

By the rules, the feats become unusable and he has to retrain them one at a time. Which means his swapped powers revert back to his cleric class powers.
 

fba827

Adventurer
I believe (as I read it) that you can't retrain a feat that is a prerequisite for another, and you can only retrain once per level.

So, basically, at 12th level you can retrain adept power to some other feat
At 13th level you can retrain acolyte power to some other feat
At 14th level you can retrain novice power to some other feat
At 15th level you can retrain student of the battle to the Invoker multiclass feat
At 16th level you can retrain one of your other feats to novice power for invoker -and- your new feat for 16th level can be acolyte power for invoker.
At 17th level you can retrain one of your other feats to adept power for invoker

You couldn't start with your student of the battle because it is a requirement for your other powerswap feats.

Anyway, I am saying all that without my books handy (just from memory) but the gist of what i remember.

-----
All that said, it seems a lengthy process and I'd ask the DM if he was open to another option given the fact that it is new and you wouldn't have had a way to plan for it.
Perhaps a quest to justify a more immediate change, or just explain it in game by a month long meditation study your PC did at a monestary, etc.

------------

Edit: Brain is still asleep, did you mean by your first sentence that the PC also took warlord paragon path multiclassing? Because I don't know if _that_ can be changed within the rules of retraining. But again, don't have my books handy ...
 


Virindi

First Post
I think one wouldn't be able to retrain your MC feat into a non-MC feat, since you can't retrain out of a feat if there is something that has it as a prerequisite. But changing which power you have swapped out with the power swap feats is not covered under retraining. It is covered under the rules of the power swap feats. Notably: "Any time you gain a level, you can alter that decision."

I will admit that the having to change them to invoker isn't explicitly stated, but the power swap feats say you are supposed to have powers from your MCed class.

I think it is fair to say you shouldn't be able to keep the powers from your old MC class, otherwise you could take MC feat for warrior, take the encounter power swap feat for a fighter encounter power, later switch the MC feat to paladin, take the utility power swap feat for a paladin ability, then later switch the MC feat to barbarian, and take the the daily power swap feat for a barbarian daily power, and finally switch your MC feat to ranger, and take advantage of that feats hunter quarry feature.

Anyways, I just trying to get others ideas on the intent of the rules on this one.

I am just not sure if
A)he gets 3 "free" for lack of better term, retrains to his new multiclass. Since PHB 208 says anytime you gain a level you can alter that decision.

B)Or after he retrains to MC invoker: if he has to retrain each powerswap one at a time.
 

Virindi

First Post
I believe (as I read it) that you can't retrain a feat that is a prerequisite for another, and you can only retrain once per level.

So, basically, at 12th level you can retrain adept power to some other feat
At 13th level you can retrain acolyte power to some other feat
At 14th level you can retrain novice power to some other feat
At 15th level you can retrain student of the battle to the Invoker multiclass feat
At 16th level you can retrain one of your other feats to novice power for invoker -and- your new feat for 16th level can be acolyte power for invoker.
At 17th level you can retrain one of your other feats to adept power for invoker

You couldn't start with your student of the battle because it is a requirement for your other powerswap feats.

Anyway, I am saying all that without my books handy (just from memory) but the gist of what i remember.

-----
All that said, it seems a lengthy process and I'd ask the DM if he was open to another option given the fact that it is new and you wouldn't have had a way to plan for it.
Perhaps a quest to justify a more immediate change, or just explain it in game by a month long meditation study your PC did at a monestary, etc.

------------

Edit: Brain is still asleep, did you mean by your first sentence that the PC also took warlord paragon path multiclassing? Because I don't know if _that_ can be changed within the rules of retraining. But again, don't have my books handy ...
No he did not take paragpn path only the warlord multi at heroic level then he took the 3 power-swap feats into his muticlass warlord (novice, Acolyte, and adept)
 

relmskye

First Post
I believe (as I read it) that you can't retrain a feat that is a prerequisite for another, and you can only retrain once per level.

So, basically, at 12th level you can retrain adept power to some other feat
At 13th level you can retrain acolyte power to some other feat
At 14th level you can retrain novice power to some other feat
At 15th level you can retrain student of the battle to the Invoker multiclass feat
At 16th level you can retrain one of your other feats to novice power for invoker -and- your new feat for 16th level can be acolyte power for invoker.
At 17th level you can retrain one of your other feats to adept power for invoker

You couldn't start with your student of the battle because it is a requirement for your other powerswap feats.
Following the rules to the letter, fba827 got it exactly right. Something to consider though: The books also suggest a DM bend the rules if it increases people's enjoyment of the game. It might help you to look at that particular suggestion as a rule in its own right.

As various other people have sugggested, keeping strictly to the retraining rules in this particular situation is needlessly lengthy and convoluted. Balance is not at stake, and your player would almost certainly have a lot more fun if he didn't have to wait 6 levels before getting to play the character he wants.

Tying the sudden change in character focus into the plot is a good idea too. Sending him on a special quest for which his patron deity rewards the character by imbuing him with a fragment of its own power? Sounds like a recipe for awesome to me. In order to justify the sudden loss of warlord abilities: Maybe say that in order to get closer to his deity, the character has to sacrifice his warlike nature? As a player, I'd totally dig all of that.
 

RyvenCedrylle

First Post
fba is correct by RAW from page 28 of PHBI

"You can't replace a feat if it's a prerequisite for any other attribute you have (another feat or paragon path, for instance)..."

That being said, if you swap out one multiclass feat for another multiclass feat, the new feat is still a prerequisite for the feat chain that would have been made null. To the best of my knowledge, the power swap feats are the only feats with multiple, mutually exclusive, equivalent prerequisites. I believe the RAI here would allow you to retrain a multiclass feat to another multiclass feat with no problem.

As for the mechanics of such a thing.. there's going to be no RAW or RAI about this at all, I expect. You have several options; I would choose different methods depending on the situation:

1) Swapping one multiclass feat for another from the same class (Student of the Sword to Combat Awareness) - no powers change.

2) Swapping one multiclass feat to something thematically like either the base or original multiclass (Ranger mc Wizard to mc Sorcerer or mc Druid) - switch out all your powers in one shot and go with it. It's not jarring. This is where you are, IMHO. If a cleric starts throwing around new divine magic all of a sudden, I would have no problem with that. I'd like a roleplay or story arc reason, but it won't bug me.

3) Swapping one multiclass feat to something utterly off-the-wall (Fighter mc Warlord to mc Druid) - your powers revert to Fighter powers for now and you can toy with them next level. Yes, this probably goes against 4E's underlying effects-based design. It's a pretty bizzare change though and I would want to discourage repetitive, random multiclass swapping. You also better have a darn good character reason for it.
 

Piratecat

Sesquipedalian
As various other people have sugggested, keeping strictly to the retraining rules in this particular situation is needlessly lengthy and convoluted. Balance is not at stake, and your player would almost certainly have a lot more fun if he didn't have to wait 6 levels before getting to play the character he wants.
Well phrased. That's my opinion as well.
 

Gargoyle

Adventurer
Anyways, I just trying to get others ideas on the intent of the rules on this one.

I don't feel the RAW handles new classes well. It should be easy and within the rules to change that rogue into the bard you always wanted to play, or that multiclass and power swap feat chain into the new class that you would have chosen if it were available at the time. They should have put something in PHB2 giving DM's the "official" option of allowing class retraining into new classes.

The intent of the retraining rules is to allow you to change feats, powers and skills, once per level, so that you can change a feat, power, or skill that you're not using or doesn't fit into your concept like you thought it would. The idea is that you can fix a bad choice, but you can only change a little bit at a time to preserve campaign continuity. It would be jarring if players were forgetting lots of old abilities and learning lots of new ones at once.

The intent of the multiclassing rules is that they start off with a basic ability of the new class and slowly learn more advanced powers from the class.

If you want to retrain a multiclass feat while sticking to the intent of both the retraining and multiclass rules, you could let the player change their multi-class feat from warlord to invoker, ignoring that it is a prerequisite. Then require them to change their power swap feats every time they level, from lowest to highest. This matches the intention of the rules; they are slowly dropping their warlord abilities for invoker abilities, and starting their new multiclass with the lower level powers.

Or since the invoker is a new option you could let them change the feats all at once, if you don't mind a bit of a continuity shift. Divine intervention or some magical happening can explain it away, or you can simply not worry about it. I'd go about it this way since the class was not available as a choice, and I feel that the slow retraining feels a bit like punishment for choosing the wrong option at character generation.
 

msherman

First Post
Wow, my read of the RAW is completely different from everyone else here. Am I completely out to lunch?

The power swap feats all specify: "Prerequisites: Any class-specific multiclass feat". So when you retrain one MC feat to another, you're still meeting the prerequisite.

Additionally, the introductory text for Power Swap Feats states (2nd paragraph): "Any time you gain a level, you can alter that decision." By my read, this means that the powers you choose for the power swap feats can be retrained at every level, without using your generic once-per-level retrain up. So by my read of the RAW, at 12th level, you can retrain your MC feat and switch all three power swaps to different powers in the new class, all at once.

Have I completely misread this?
 
Last edited:

nope, good reasoning^^

By RAW you could just let him switch completely at next level...
which doesnt sound wrong when he is not in an active adventure...
if he is... I would let him switch his powers one by ne during an encounter, after a milestone or after an extended rest... as I see fit, and when it is most cool^^

I would hesitate allowing him to switch all at once over night... but thats just a personal thing...
 

relmskye

First Post
Wow, my read of the RAW is completely different from everyone else here. Am I completely out to lunch?

The power swap feats all specify: "Prerequisites: Any class-specific multiclass feat". So when you retrain one MC feat to another, you're still meeting the prerequisite.

Additionally, the introductory text for Power Swap Feats states (2nd paragraph): "Any time you gain a level, you can alter that decision." By my read, this means that the powers you choose for the power swap feats can be retrained at every level, without using your generic once-per-level retrain up. So by my read of the RAW, at 12th level, you can retrain your MC feat and switch all three power swaps to different powers in the new class, all at once.

Have I completely misread this?
Haven't misread that as such. You'll find the relevant paragraph on p.28 of the PHB, under the heading of Retraining, where it states: "You can't replace a feat if it's a prerequisite for any other attribute you have (another feat or a paragon path, for example), or if the feat is a feature of your class, path, or destiny (as the Ritual Caster feat is a class feature for Wizards)."

The feat you would replace it with doesn't enter the equation according to RAW; It only considers the feat you're trying to get rid of.
 

msherman

First Post
Haven't misread that as such. You'll find the relevant paragraph on p.28 of the PHB, under the heading of Retraining, where it states: "You can't replace a feat if it's a prerequisite for any other attribute you have (another feat or a paragon path, for example), or if the feat is a feature of your class, path, or destiny (as the Ritual Caster feat is a class feature for Wizards)."

The feat you would replace it with doesn't enter the equation according to RAW; It only considers the feat you're trying to get rid of.

Ok, I understand the argument, but there's an analagous retrain which I've frequently seen quoted as perfectly legal: if I have the feats Skill Training Arcana and Ritual Caster, by your interpretation, I wouldn't be able to retrain my Skill Training Arcana to Arcane Initiate (which also grants training in Arcana, thus meeting the prerequisite)? I think that's a misinterpretation of the text, which seems to me to be clearly intended to not allow to retrain something that's providing a prerequisite leaving you with an illegal feat. I'm willing to concede that I might be entering house rule territory at this point, but I think it's far more likely that this is simply an errata candidate.
 

relmskye

First Post
Ok, I understand the argument, but there's an analagous retrain which I've frequently seen quoted as perfectly legal: if I have the feats Skill Training Arcana and Ritual Caster, by your interpretation, I wouldn't be able to retrain my Skill Training Arcana to Arcane Initiate (which also grants training in Arcana, thus meeting the prerequisite)? I think that's a misinterpretation of the text, which seems to me to be clearly intended to not allow to retrain something that's providing a prerequisite leaving you with an illegal feat. I'm willing to concede that I might be entering house rule territory at this point, but I think it's far more likely that this is simply an errata candidate.
It's not so much a misinterpretation as it is a literal interpretation. The RAW and RAI are different things. To assume the rules are intended to work as anything other than their exact wording is simply that: an assumption (albeit a very reasonable one in this case). Wizards themselves are the only ones who can confirm or contest that assumption with any real authority.

That said, I'm just being pedantic here.

While your example wouldn't work if one follows the books to the letter, I do feel it ought to be legal. It doesn't make much sense to me to disallow a retraining like that, and it's certainly legal in the games I run.
 


DracoSuave

First Post
I'd let him do it, but over two levels, make it a story arc for his discovering his ability to channel the raw essence of the gods.
 

infocynic

First Post
FWIW I tried to do this with the character builder...

I did a quick build of a level 11 cleric and then went back and picked multi warlord at 4 and the 3 power-swap feats after that, and some random feat at 11th.

I picked new powers at levels 6, 8, and 10 for the power swap feats (the builder gives you the option to change them each level, in addition to whatever retraining you want to do, which is good because that's what RAW says).

I leveled up to 12 and visited the retraining tab, and pulled out Student of Battle for Acolyte of Divine Secrets. At this point, the builder was very confused. It automatically flagged my character as houseruled, marking the power-swap feats and their powers as house-ruled. I could not use the builder to swap the powers (I was able to take my own powers back through a non-intuitive means, but that's a usability issue not a rules issue :)).

Even after taking my powers back, the feats were still house-ruled. (I tried unselecting them, bypassing the retraining rules, and reselecting them, as if I had made an error during the selection process, and it was still a house rule.)

Not saying that the character builder is the final authority on the rules, but it certainly things you need 4 levels of crap to deal with the retraining issues. I agree with the above posters though, let your character do it faster--over the course of a level even might be a good duration.
 

Dungeon Delver's Guide

An Advertisement

Advertisement4

Top