Multiclass and power swap feats

[Virindi]

A 11th level primary class Cleric. Has multiclassed into (Student of Battle) Warlord multiclass. He has also taken power swap feats of novice, acolyte, and adept to get warlord powers.
Now that PHBII has come out he wants to retrain at level 12 his (Student of Battle) Warlord multi-class to (Acolyte of Divine Secrets) Invoker multiclass.

What happens to his power swap feats if he does this? Do they simply convert over to Invoker powers? Do they become blank feats, and he has to wait to retain them one at a time? Do they simply revert to his original cleric class powers? I have looked at PHB pg 28 on retraining, PHB pg 208 on multiclass, and PHB II pg 196 on multiclass, and not sure how to interpret retraining rules with the powerswap/multiclass retraing.

I apologize if this has been asked in past. If so could you link the thread.

 

[NMcCoy]

Be nice to the player and let him switch his power-swap feats over to Invoker powers. The retraining restrictions serve primarily to maintain character continuity between levels, but because the power level is exactly the same there's no real reason to not let the player play the character he wants.

 

[Virindi]

Be nice to the player and let him switch his power-swap feats over to Invoker powers. The retraining restrictions serve primarily to maintain character continuity between levels, but because the power level is exactly the same there's no real reason to not let the player play the character he wants.

I am all for being nice. I just want to go by rules. I am seeking clarification.

 

[Harlekin]

A 11th level primary class Cleric. Has multiclassed into (Student of Battle) Warlord multiclass. He has also taken power swap feats of novice, acolyte, and adept to get warlord powers.
Now that PHBII has come out he wants to retrain at level 12 his (Student of Battle) Warlord multi-class to (Acolyte of Divine Secrets) Invoker multiclass.

What happens to his power swap feats if he does this? Do they simply convert over to Invoker powers? Do they become blank feats, and he has to wait to retain them one at a time? Do they simply revert to his original cleric class powers? I have looked at PHB pg 28 on retraining, PHB pg 208 on multiclass, and PHB II pg 196 on multiclass, and not sure how to interpret retraining rules with the powerswap/multiclass retraing.

I apologize if this has been asked in past. If so could you link the thread.

By the rules, the feats become unusable and he has to retrain them one at a time. Which means his swapped powers revert back to his cleric class powers.

 

[fba827]

I believe (as I read it) that you can't retrain a feat that is a prerequisite for another, and you can only retrain once per level.

So, basically, at 12th level you can retrain adept power to some other feat
At 13th level you can retrain acolyte power to some other feat
At 14th level you can retrain novice power to some other feat
At 15th level you can retrain student of the battle to the Invoker multiclass feat
At 16th level you can retrain one of your other feats to novice power for invoker -and- your new feat for 16th level can be acolyte power for invoker.
At 17th level you can retrain one of your other feats to adept power for invoker

You couldn't start with your student of the battle because it is a requirement for your other powerswap feats.

Anyway, I am saying all that without my books handy (just from memory) but the gist of what i remember.

-----
All that said, it seems a lengthy process and I'd ask the DM if he was open to another option given the fact that it is new and you wouldn't have had a way to plan for it.
Perhaps a quest to justify a more immediate change, or just explain it in game by a month long meditation study your PC did at a monestary, etc.

------------

Edit: Brain is still asleep, did you mean by your first sentence that the PC also took warlord paragon path multiclassing? Because I don't know if _that_ can be changed within the rules of retraining. But again, don't have my books handy ...

 

[Nifft]

because the power level is exactly the same there's no real reason to not let the player play the character he wants.

This would be my reasoning, too. I'm a fan of retraining to get the character you want.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Virindi]

I think one wouldn't be able to retrain your MC feat into a non-MC feat, since you can't retrain out of a feat if there is something that has it as a prerequisite. But changing which power you have swapped out with the power swap feats is not covered under retraining. It is covered under the rules of the power swap feats. Notably: "Any time you gain a level, you can alter that decision."

I will admit that the having to change them to invoker isn't explicitly stated, but the power swap feats say you are supposed to have powers from your MCed class.

I think it is fair to say you shouldn't be able to keep the powers from your old MC class, otherwise you could take MC feat for warrior, take the encounter power swap feat for a fighter encounter power, later switch the MC feat to paladin, take the utility power swap feat for a paladin ability, then later switch the MC feat to barbarian, and take the the daily power swap feat for a barbarian daily power, and finally switch your MC feat to ranger, and take advantage of that feats hunter quarry feature.

Anyways, I just trying to get others ideas on the intent of the rules on this one.

I am just not sure if
A)he gets 3 "free" for lack of better term, retrains to his new multiclass. Since PHB 208 says anytime you gain a level you can alter that decision.

B)Or after he retrains to MC invoker: if he has to retrain each powerswap one at a time.

 

[Virindi]

I believe (as I read it) that you can't retrain a feat that is a prerequisite for another, and you can only retrain once per level.

So, basically, at 12th level you can retrain adept power to some other feat
At 13th level you can retrain acolyte power to some other feat
At 14th level you can retrain novice power to some other feat
At 15th level you can retrain student of the battle to the Invoker multiclass feat
At 16th level you can retrain one of your other feats to novice power for invoker -and- your new feat for 16th level can be acolyte power for invoker.
At 17th level you can retrain one of your other feats to adept power for invoker

You couldn't start with your student of the battle because it is a requirement for your other powerswap feats.

Anyway, I am saying all that without my books handy (just from memory) but the gist of what i remember.

-----
All that said, it seems a lengthy process and I'd ask the DM if he was open to another option given the fact that it is new and you wouldn't have had a way to plan for it.
Perhaps a quest to justify a more immediate change, or just explain it in game by a month long meditation study your PC did at a monestary, etc.

------------

Edit: Brain is still asleep, did you mean by your first sentence that the PC also took warlord paragon path multiclassing? Because I don't know if _that_ can be changed within the rules of retraining. But again, don't have my books handy ...

No he did not take paragpn path only the warlord multi at heroic level then he took the 3 power-swap feats into his muticlass warlord (novice, Acolyte, and adept)

 

[relmskye]

I believe (as I read it) that you can't retrain a feat that is a prerequisite for another, and you can only retrain once per level.

So, basically, at 12th level you can retrain adept power to some other feat
At 13th level you can retrain acolyte power to some other feat
At 14th level you can retrain novice power to some other feat
At 15th level you can retrain student of the battle to the Invoker multiclass feat
At 16th level you can retrain one of your other feats to novice power for invoker -and- your new feat for 16th level can be acolyte power for invoker.
At 17th level you can retrain one of your other feats to adept power for invoker

You couldn't start with your student of the battle because it is a requirement for your other powerswap feats.

Following the rules to the letter, fba827 got it exactly right. Something to consider though: The books also suggest a DM bend the rules if it increases people's enjoyment of the game. It might help you to look at that particular suggestion as a rule in its own right.

As various other people have sugggested, keeping strictly to the retraining rules in this particular situation is needlessly lengthy and convoluted. Balance is not at stake, and your player would almost certainly have a lot more fun if he didn't have to wait 6 levels before getting to play the character he wants.

Tying the sudden change in character focus into the plot is a good idea too. Sending him on a special quest for which his patron deity rewards the character by imbuing him with a fragment of its own power? Sounds like a recipe for awesome to me. In order to justify the sudden loss of warlord abilities: Maybe say that in order to get closer to his deity, the character has to sacrifice his warlike nature? As a player, I'd totally dig all of that.

 

[RyvenCedrylle]

fba is correct by RAW from page 28 of PHBI

"You can't replace a feat if it's a prerequisite for any other attribute you have (another feat or paragon path, for instance)..."

That being said, if you swap out one multiclass feat for another multiclass feat, the new feat is still a prerequisite for the feat chain that would have been made null. To the best of my knowledge, the power swap feats are the only feats with multiple, mutually exclusive, equivalent prerequisites. I believe the RAI here would allow you to retrain a multiclass feat to another multiclass feat with no problem.

As for the mechanics of such a thing.. there's going to be no RAW or RAI about this at all, I expect. You have several options; I would choose different methods depending on the situation:

1) Swapping one multiclass feat for another from the same class (Student of the Sword to Combat Awareness) - no powers change.

2) Swapping one multiclass feat to something thematically like either the base or original multiclass (Ranger mc Wizard to mc Sorcerer or mc Druid) - switch out all your powers in one shot and go with it. It's not jarring. This is where you are, IMHO. If a cleric starts throwing around new divine magic all of a sudden, I would have no problem with that. I'd like a roleplay or story arc reason, but it won't bug me.

3) Swapping one multiclass feat to something utterly off-the-wall (Fighter mc Warlord to mc Druid) - your powers revert to Fighter powers for now and you can toy with them next level. Yes, this probably goes against 4E's underlying effects-based design. It's a pretty bizzare change though and I would want to discourage repetitive, random multiclass swapping. You also better have a darn good character reason for it.