Piratecat
Sesquipedalian
Well phrased. That's my opinion as well.
Multiclass and power swap feats
Gargoyle
Adventurer
I don't feel the RAW handles new classes well. It should be easy and within the rules to change that rogue into the bard you always wanted to play, or that multiclass and power swap feat chain into the new class that you would have chosen if it were available at the time. They should have put something in PHB2 giving DM's the "official" option of allowing class retraining into new classes.
The intent of the retraining rules is to allow you to change feats, powers and skills, once per level, so that you can change a feat, power, or skill that you're not using or doesn't fit into your concept like you thought it would. The idea is that you can fix a bad choice, but you can only change a little bit at a time to preserve campaign continuity. It would be jarring if players were forgetting lots of old abilities and learning lots of new ones at once.
The intent of the multiclassing rules is that they start off with a basic ability of the new class and slowly learn more advanced powers from the class.
If you want to retrain a multiclass feat while sticking to the intent of both the retraining and multiclass rules, you could let the player change their multi-class feat from warlord to invoker, ignoring that it is a prerequisite. Then require them to change their power swap feats every time they level, from lowest to highest. This matches the intention of the rules; they are slowly dropping their warlord abilities for invoker abilities, and starting their new multiclass with the lower level powers.
Or since the invoker is a new option you could let them change the feats all at once, if you don't mind a bit of a continuity shift. Divine intervention or some magical happening can explain it away, or you can simply not worry about it. I'd go about it this way since the class was not available as a choice, and I feel that the slow retraining feels a bit like punishment for choosing the wrong option at character generation.
Wow, my read of the RAW is completely different from everyone else here. Am I completely out to lunch?
The power swap feats all specify: "Prerequisites: Any class-specific multiclass feat". So when you retrain one MC feat to another, you're still meeting the prerequisite.
Additionally, the introductory text for Power Swap Feats states (2nd paragraph): "Any time you gain a level, you can alter that decision." By my read, this means that the powers you choose for the power swap feats can be retrained at every level, without using your generic once-per-level retrain up. So by my read of the RAW, at 12th level, you can retrain your MC feat and switch all three power swaps to different powers in the new class, all at once.
Have I completely misread this?
The power swap feats all specify: "Prerequisites: Any class-specific multiclass feat". So when you retrain one MC feat to another, you're still meeting the prerequisite.
Additionally, the introductory text for Power Swap Feats states (2nd paragraph): "Any time you gain a level, you can alter that decision." By my read, this means that the powers you choose for the power swap feats can be retrained at every level, without using your generic once-per-level retrain up. So by my read of the RAW, at 12th level, you can retrain your MC feat and switch all three power swaps to different powers in the new class, all at once.
Have I completely misread this?
Last edited:
UngeheuerLich
Legend
nope, good reasoning^^
By RAW you could just let him switch completely at next level...
which doesnt sound wrong when he is not in an active adventure...
if he is... I would let him switch his powers one by ne during an encounter, after a milestone or after an extended rest... as I see fit, and when it is most cool^^
I would hesitate allowing him to switch all at once over night... but thats just a personal thing...
By RAW you could just let him switch completely at next level...
which doesnt sound wrong when he is not in an active adventure...
if he is... I would let him switch his powers one by ne during an encounter, after a milestone or after an extended rest... as I see fit, and when it is most cool^^
I would hesitate allowing him to switch all at once over night... but thats just a personal thing...
Haven't misread that as such. You'll find the relevant paragraph on p.28 of the PHB, under the heading of Retraining, where it states: "You can't replace a feat if it's a prerequisite for any other attribute you have (another feat or a paragon path, for example), or if the feat is a feature of your class, path, or destiny (as the Ritual Caster feat is a class feature for Wizards)."
The feat you would replace it with doesn't enter the equation according to RAW; It only considers the feat you're trying to get rid of.
Ok, I understand the argument, but there's an analagous retrain which I've frequently seen quoted as perfectly legal: if I have the feats Skill Training Arcana and Ritual Caster, by your interpretation, I wouldn't be able to retrain my Skill Training Arcana to Arcane Initiate (which also grants training in Arcana, thus meeting the prerequisite)? I think that's a misinterpretation of the text, which seems to me to be clearly intended to not allow to retrain something that's providing a prerequisite leaving you with an illegal feat. I'm willing to concede that I might be entering house rule territory at this point, but I think it's far more likely that this is simply an errata candidate.
It's not so much a misinterpretation as it is a literal interpretation. The RAW and RAI are different things. To assume the rules are intended to work as anything other than their exact wording is simply that: an assumption (albeit a very reasonable one in this case). Wizards themselves are the only ones who can confirm or contest that assumption with any real authority.
That said, I'm just being pedantic here.
While your example wouldn't work if one follows the books to the letter, I do feel it ought to be legal. It doesn't make much sense to me to disallow a retraining like that, and it's certainly legal in the games I run.
DracoSuave
First Post
I'd let him do it, but over two levels, make it a story arc for his discovering his ability to channel the raw essence of the gods.
deleteme123456
Explorer
FWIW I tried to do this with the character builder...
I did a quick build of a level 11 cleric and then went back and picked multi warlord at 4 and the 3 power-swap feats after that, and some random feat at 11th.
I picked new powers at levels 6, 8, and 10 for the power swap feats (the builder gives you the option to change them each level, in addition to whatever retraining you want to do, which is good because that's what RAW says).
I leveled up to 12 and visited the retraining tab, and pulled out Student of Battle for Acolyte of Divine Secrets. At this point, the builder was very confused. It automatically flagged my character as houseruled, marking the power-swap feats and their powers as house-ruled. I could not use the builder to swap the powers (I was able to take my own powers back through a non-intuitive means, but that's a usability issue not a rules issue
).
Even after taking my powers back, the feats were still house-ruled. (I tried unselecting them, bypassing the retraining rules, and reselecting them, as if I had made an error during the selection process, and it was still a house rule.)
Not saying that the character builder is the final authority on the rules, but it certainly things you need 4 levels of crap to deal with the retraining issues. I agree with the above posters though, let your character do it faster--over the course of a level even might be a good duration.
I did a quick build of a level 11 cleric and then went back and picked multi warlord at 4 and the 3 power-swap feats after that, and some random feat at 11th.
I picked new powers at levels 6, 8, and 10 for the power swap feats (the builder gives you the option to change them each level, in addition to whatever retraining you want to do, which is good because that's what RAW says).
I leveled up to 12 and visited the retraining tab, and pulled out Student of Battle for Acolyte of Divine Secrets. At this point, the builder was very confused. It automatically flagged my character as houseruled, marking the power-swap feats and their powers as house-ruled. I could not use the builder to swap the powers (I was able to take my own powers back through a non-intuitive means, but that's a usability issue not a rules issue
).Even after taking my powers back, the feats were still house-ruled. (I tried unselecting them, bypassing the retraining rules, and reselecting them, as if I had made an error during the selection process, and it was still a house rule.)
Not saying that the character builder is the final authority on the rules, but it certainly things you need 4 levels of crap to deal with the retraining issues. I agree with the above posters though, let your character do it faster--over the course of a level even might be a good duration.
