D&D 5E (2024) Multiclass Ranger Fix?

[Tigris]

No.

Hunters mark is supposed to be a 2nd option. It's a stink' 1st level spell.

No class should be using a 1st level spell as their goto at level 11.

Why not? This is a "half caster" although half in this game does not mean half power but less, since you get ot only less spell slots but also lower level ones. Also shield, resist elements, silvery barbs, command and dissonant wispers are also level 1 spells which are still useful later.

Even if HM didn't have concentration, like I said often, what spell are you casting with it?

One of the many summon spells (1 subclass specifically gets summon fey without concentration), or spike growth, or the quiverspell in endgame which has great synergy with the hunters mark.

Or silence because Ranger works well without spells the enemy caster might have more problems.

Ranger is the only class that didn't get access to one of 2024's new spells and got no new spells in the FR book.

But it got some spells updated.

The "I don't see ranger as a spellcaster" people are holding back a literal spellcasting class.


It would be worse.

WOTC does not have a good track record with building noncasters .

Yes WotC tends to put too much power into spells. You know the same thing which you now also want to do by "fix ranger by making his spells better."


In 4E the version where Ranger was a non caster it was one of the strongest classes.

And in 5.5 many people like the fighter like here: D&D 5E (2024) - 5.5 Fighter Best Eince 2E


So WotC can make some good mattial classes.

Beastmaster and Horizon Walker dont really have the scaling problem, so it is partially a subclass problem. (Including that several subclass features are dependant on hunters mark).


Also the melee hunter profits quite a lot if GM allows to just cast shileilagh every 30 seconds. This way you can have 20 wis, 16 con, 14 dex (with medium armor) on level 8 this + a Shield is making you really tanky while not losing too much damage and also do improve several subclasses quite a bit since they are wisdom based.


"That''s because WOTC can't seem to find ways to give bonuses/enhance classes without giving them magic. Like, seriously, wtf is the rogue "arcane trickster" stereotype?"

(Sorry cant quote saw the post too late).


Yeah this is also one thing annoying me. Most of the good fighter subclasses use magic. Battlemaster is the only one which is strong and flexible without adding magic... There would be so many things one can do.

 

[mellored]

It is obvious but doesn't do much vs war cleric. Druids don't get spirit guardians to stack on top of weapon damage.

Zhent Hunter/assassin looks good for weapon damage

Druids and rangers have Conjure Animals for their AoE. Also druids get conjure Minor Elemental and Font of Moonlight if you go higher with them.
Go on Star druids -> Dragon (+resilent Con) for near unbreakable concentration in melee.

Rogues of course get sneak attack. Which stacks, depending on how high you go with them. Not to mention expertise and reliable talent.


Not that war cleric would be bad either.

 

[bedir than]

Can we start at the beginning?
What's the problem with the Ranger? Can we be specific?

It's supposed lack of popularity isn't supported by anything. That supposed fact the OP starts with doesn't match with any survey or supporting data. Not only was the Ranger not the least popular class the last time DnDBeyond shared data it also wasn't the second, nor third, nor fourth least popular.
In fact, two of the favorite classes for power gamers were below Ranger.

Is the Ranger mechanically weak from a power gaming perspective? Who knows. There's no data supporting this belief either.

 

[Tigris]

Can we start at the beginning?
What's the problem with the Ranger? Can we be specific?

It's supposed lack of popularity isn't supported by anything. That supposed fact the OP starts with doesn't match with any survey or supporting data. Not only was the Ranger not the least popular class the last time DnDBeyond shared data it also wasn't the second, nor third, nor fourth least popular.
In fact, two of the favorite classes for power gamers were below Ranger.

Is the Ranger mechanically weak from a power gaming perspective? Who knows. There's no data supporting this belief either.

Well the problems which are brought up with the ranger (in lots of discussions I did some googling today) are the following

1. The from level 6 to level 10 there is no damage increase at all. (ignoring spellslots)
2. Most classes have a big damage increase or another really strong feature on level 11, since thats another powerspike level like level 5 and the ranger in general lacks this since its subclass dependant and only 1 from the new subclasses really has that needed powerspike/damage increase.
3. In general the ranger does not scale much lategame also in the levels after 11. So his damage sinks compared to other classes, especially the capstone feature at level 20 is really really weak.
4. The ranger has 2 "main" class features. One being spellcasting the other hunters mark. And several other class features (level 13, 17, 20 + several subclass features) depend on hunters mark. On the same time many spells the hunter has also need concentration (like 40%+) and also many spells (and also some class features) do also need the bonus action. But even if they need an action (like summoning spell withour concentration), you cant do a spell and hunters mark in the same turn. So it feels bad that the 2 main features fight against each other.



These problems will come up rarely in statistics, since most campaigns dont go over level 7, and only a really small percentage ever go above level 11.

However, this is also a bit a spiral because people play high level less often because irs in general co sidered worse balanced etc.




Of course one does not need to use huntrrs mark. And the extra uses makes it hurt not so much when you lose its concenteation. And the level 13 and 17 features come st levels where you get new spell levels so its just a small bonus, but the subclass features and the capstone are still dependant on it.


EDIT: Also your data is from beginning of 2024. So has most likely looot of 5e not 5.24 dsta in it. This post was about the 5.24 ranger.

 

[bedir than]

1 - ignoring spell slots does lots of work. If we ignore spell slots on Paladins they're a horrible class.
2 - yeah, the Ranger leans into mobility and defense more in that tier upgrade and in the second tier. Fey Wanderer getting free Summon Fey can boost the damage in positive ways without Concentration, but that's been ignored in this discussion.
3 - Both rangers I played went past 11, but they were a drakewarden and swarmkeeper. I LOVED the high level Swarm keeper.
4 - I tend to use spells and am not concerned with needing to drop Hunter's Mark. With the increase in usage it's easy to cast what's needed in the moment. Since combats aren't in 100 by 100 rooms without terrain the utility of switching things up is wonderful. The ability to strike hard and retreat while slowing/trapping/distracting the opponent is the narrative.

Having a Ranger be "massive damage dealer that stands still" fights against the story, which may be why dialing it in for max damage in a white room isn't working -- the story doesn't want that.

 

[Minigiant]

Why not? This is a "half caster" although half in this game does not mean half power but less, since you get ot only less spell slots but also lower level ones. Also shield, resist elements, silvery barbs, command and dissonant wispers are also level 1 spells which are still useful later

But ranger doesn't have those spells.

The core is ranger spells are druid spells but druids get 3rd to 5th level spells a tier or 2 earlier

One of the many summon spells (1 subclass specifically gets summon fey without concentration), or spike growth, or the quiverspell in endgame which has great synergy with the hunters mark.

Which all but a few wanderer casts with concentration and those loses in one hit.

Again ranger still needs good non concentration spells or EXCELLENT concentration spells.

 

[Minigiant]

That''s because WOTC can't seem to find ways to give bonuses/enhance classes without giving them magic. Like, seriously, wtf is the rogue "arcane trickster" stereotype?

No the problem is that D&D after level 10 is super high fantasy but WOTC is afraid of and was lead by grognards who can't imagine what a high level ranger has magically that a druid doesn't.

They won't lean into anime or comic book fightin' nonsense martially nor magically.

Literally the arcane archer has more magic arrows than a ranger.

 

[Tigris]

1 - ignoring spell slots does lots of work. If we ignore spell slots on Paladins they're a horrible class.

Are they? If paladins could not cast regular spells they still have the smite class feature (yes it uses spell slots but the hunters mark class feature can also use spell slots but its not worth it).

Also paladins still have an 1d8 damage increase on level 11. And also have their really really strong level 6 aura (and a good one level 10). And also get an extra daily use of channel divinity on level 11.

Paladin also has a really fast mount as a class feature to summon which does grant a lot of mobility.

This does not sound weak (and they still have subclasse features which are also strong).

2 - yeah, the Ranger leans into mobility and defense more in that tier upgrade and in the second tier. Fey Wanderer getting free Summon Fey can boost the damage in positive ways without Concentration, but that's been ignored in this discussion.

Summon Fey is mentioned as a level 11 subclass festure before. But its using limited ressources unlike other level 11 festures.

3 - Both rangers I played went past 11, but they were a drakewarden and swarmkeeper. I LOVED the high level Swarm keeper.

But both of these are not 2024 subclasses. Did you use 2024 ranger else? The drakewarden is also one of the strongest ranger subclasses.


I am not saying ranger has a massive problem, but its really dependant on a good subclass. And I can see why people might want to get into another class at level 5 which grants more damage.

But ranger doesn't have those spells.

The core is ranger spells are druid spells but druids get 3rd to 5th level spells a tier or 2 earlier

Which all but a few wanderer casts with concentration and those loses in one hit.

Again ranger still needs good non concentration spells or EXCELLENT concentration spells.

This is exactly what I mean. They are half casters. So only a small part of their power should be in spells. Making their spells more powerfull than other same level spells just creates potential problems and again does the boring "only spells can be powerfull".

 

[bedir than]

But both of these are not 2024 subclasses. Did you use 2024 ranger else? The drakewarden is also one of the strongest ranger subclasses.

Both are valid, per WotC, in 2024.

But also I haven't been a player with 2024 rules as the baseline yet. I'm DMing, but those characters are up to 4th. There are two Rangers in the group.

 

[Tigris]

Both are valid, per WotC, in 2024.

Sure, I also sugested using older subclasses, but if most of the new subclasses are weak (the ones people will have whn buying the PHB) then its still a problem.

But also I haven't been a player with 2024 rules as the baseline yet. I'm DMing, but those characters are up to 4th. There are two Rangers in the group.

But thats where the problems come up and what OP is talking about. That many people feel the 2024 ranger in higher levels compares to other 2024 classes falls off.