D&D 5E Multiclass vs. hybrid subclasses

[Aldarc]

Arcane Tricksters multiclass well with wizards. Most of the rogue's upper level abilities are fairly lackluster, with a few exceptions (i.e. Slippery Mind). Your biggest loss comes from your sneak attack damage, a loss that will generally range from 1d6-4d6 depending on how deep you go into wizard (generally between 2 to 9 levels). But for what you lose in straight-up damage, you gain in added spell versatility and utility. If you go AT 12/Wiz 8, for example, then you still have as many ASIs as a full rogue. If you go the Bladesinger route, then you are looking at advantage on your Acrobatics checks, a bonus 10 feet on your mobility and Dash, a bonus to Int on your AC and concentration, plus the option of an extra attack for landing your sneak attacks.

Dipping into wizard is also feasible for the AT before 5th level too. Going 2 levels of wizard right after AT 3 nets the character more than the equivalent of a feat, 1d6 sneak attack, and uncanny dodge: you boost your casting (3rd level full caster as opposed to 1 2/3 caster), you gain more wizard cantrips and spells outside of the AT's limited selection (magic initiate feat!), you gain a wizard's ritual casting (the ritual casting feat!), arcane recovery, plus the 2nd level arcane tradition feature (see what you gain with bladesinger above). With uncanny dodge you can use your reaction to halve-damage, or you can use your spells and bladesinging to avoid damage entirely. You'll get uncanny dodge eventually, so no sweat.

 

[FrogReaver]

In my experience when people multiclass they get to caught up in what they gain for a few levels and forget about what they lose a few levels letter. Usually what they lose far outweighs what they think they have gained.

 

[FrogReaver]

Oh wow, you mean there's one more exception to the non caster - caster exception list. OMG, one would have thought I said there was no multiclass combinations that work....

All I have to say is that if almost all your "working" multiclass examples rely on maybe 3-4 cantrips then something is wrong. I shouldn't have to rely on a list of 3-4 cantrips to create a working multiclass character.

Kind of proves my point. Multiclassing in general just doesn't work. There's only a very small subset of abilities that really work for a multiclass pre level 5. 3-4 cantrips, rage, rogue and maybe 1-2 more.

Let me define "multiclass that works":

It means you are on par with a single class character at level 5, 6, 7 and not just when you start the multiclass. Excluding your 3-4 select cantrips or barbarian rage or a two weapon fighting rogue then basically no other multiclass combo stays close to a pure class at the mentioned levels, at least until you get to level 5 for one of your multiclassed classes.

No matter what you say this just isn't true outside the few exceptions and maybe 1-2 other abilities than I've mentioned above.

It's not warlocks--it's cantrip scaling. A Life Cleric 1/Illusionist 4 is also perfectly fine at 5th level, competitive with a melee Fighter for damage output, thanks to melee cantrips.

When people claim that you can't multiclass until after 5th level without suffering severe penalties, they're wrong. Don't be surprised if people point that out, with or without reference to warlocks. Your Fighter/Sorcerer can be a Fighter 1/Sorcerer 4 with no real regrets. He'll have a 2d10 Fire Bolt and a 2d8+Str+2d8 Booming Blade, which compares favorably to Extra Attack. His survivability is as good as the Fighter's too, maybe better, thanks to Shield.

The Fighter still has some tricks that are better than the Sorcerer's, e.g. Sharpshooter w/ Battlemaster superiority dice if you're into that kind of thing, but the Fighter 1/Sorcerer 4 has tricks of his own, and one level later he's got fireball just like the single-classed sorcerer. He's not falling behind, he's just different.

 

[TwoSix]

Kind of proves my point. Multiclassing in general just doesn't work. There's only a very small subset of abilities that really work for a multiclass pre level 5. 3-4 cantrips, rage, rogue and maybe 1-2 more.

"Multiclassing doesn't work except for all the exceptions where it does" is a strong argument I certainly wouldn't want to try and refute.

 

[FrogReaver]

"Multiclassing doesn't work except for all the exceptions where it does" is a strong argument I certainly wouldn't want to try and refute.

When you are talking about it working because of a handful (maybe 6-7) of abilities out of the whole players handbook and all other sources then yes, it's an easy position to defend. ( Mentioning again that around half of the 6-7 abilities that it works with are cantrips also shows its massive limitations.)

Again it works just fine post level 5. I haven't argued it doesn't. This is pre level 5 multiclassing that doesn't work except for a handful of abilities. And again not working means you are sacrificing too much for your 5th and maybe 6th or 7th levels without anything comparable to replace the lost abilities with.

 

[FrogReaver]

Frogreaver: In general most numbers are not prime.
Others: But 2,3,5,7 and so on are all prime numbers, you are wrong.
Frogreaver: yea, there's even an infinite amount of prime numbers, that doesn't negate that most numbers are not prime

That's kind of how this conversation is going... Yes, there's a few abilities that multiclass well pre level 5. If you don't pick one of those abilities then your multiclass character will suck from level 5 till one of your multiclassed classes reaches an individual level of 5.

 

[TwoSix]

That's kind of how this conversation is going... Yes, there's a few abilities that multiclass well pre level 5. If you don't pick one of those abilities then your multiclass character will suck from level 5 till one of your multiclassed classes reaches an individual level of 5.

Oh, come on now. The level 5 abilities are substantial, yes, but not character defining. As long as you have a decent amount of hit points and an OK at-will, you can pull your weight no matter what your build.

 

[FrogReaver]

Oh, come on now. The level 5 abilities are substantial, yes, but not character defining. As long as you have a decent amount of hit points and an OK at-will, you can pull your weight no matter what your build.

But you will not be pulling "your weight". You will be doing better than nothing that's for sure and you can probably rely on the non-multiclassed memebers of your party to carry you through most fights but that doesn't mean you are pulling your weight.

At level 5 you will be pulling a little over 50% of the weight you should be pulling. (unless you have one of the exceptions I've droned on and on about).

 

[FrogReaver]

If the multiclass system is so robust let's try and make a few distinct characters. I won't place many restrictions on them.

1. fighter bard that doesn't rely on any of the above mentioned cantrips and is comparable to a single class character at level 5.
2. A paladin sorcerer that doesn't rely on any of the above mentioned cantrips and is comparable to a single class paladin or sorcerer at level 5.
3. A wizard cleric that is comparable to a wizard or a cleric at level 5.
4. A Ranger Fighter that is comparable to a ranger or fighter at level 5.
5. Bard Paladin without the above mentioned cantrips that is comparable to a bard or paladin at level 5
6. Monk Fighter that is comparable to a fighter or a monk at level 5.
7. Fighter Druid that is comparable to a Fighter or a Druid at level 5.

I could go on and on. You may can luck up and find a couple of characters in this ever growing list that you can make.

 

[TwoSix]

If the multiclass system is so robust let's try and make a few distinct characters. I won't place many restrictions on them.

1. fighter bard that doesn't rely on any of the above mentioned cantrips and is comparable to a single class character at level 5.

I don't know what to say, man.

If you're arguing that Fighter 2/Bard 3 isn't as effective as Fighter 5 or Bard 5, sure, I'll agree with you.

If you're arguing that Fighter 2/Bard 3 should be as effective as Fighter 5 or Bard 5, and it's a flaw in the multiclassing system that's it not, then I disagree with you.