D&D 5E Multiclass vs. hybrid subclasses

[UngeheuerLich]

Frogreaver: In general most numbers are not prime.
Others: But 2,3,5,7 and so on are all prime numbers, you are wrong.
Frogreaver: yea, there's even an infinite amount of prime numbers, that doesn't negate that most numbers are not prime

That's kind of how this conversation is going... Yes, there's a few abilities that multiclass well pre level 5. If you don't pick one of those abilities then your multiclass character will suck from level 5 till one of your multiclassed classes reaches an individual level of 5.

Yeah that sums it up. There are an infinite number of good combinations. But if you don't think about it, you probably do it wrong.
That said, I suppose cantrips scale with character level so spellcaster multiclasses have a chance not to sick trying to deal damage.
On the other hand, if damage is not your main concern, you may see more good combinations.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Oh wow, you mean there's one more exception to the non caster - caster exception list. OMG, one would have thought I said there was no multiclass combinations that work....

All I have to say is that if almost all your "working" multiclass examples rely on maybe 3-4 cantrips then something is wrong. I shouldn't have to rely on a list of 3-4 cantrips to create a working multiclass character.

Here's a completely non-cantrip one:

Shadow Monk 3/Rogue 2 is fantastic. Cunning Action and Stealth +18-19? Yes, please.

Makes a terrifying low-level villain for the PCs. The one I used was actually a Shadow Monk 7/Rogue 2 but the way things played out, Shadow Monk 3/Rogue 2 would have been more than enough. Low DPR but the PCs just can't find him to hit him back, so they have to fall back on active perception (Search action) and readied actions.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

If the multiclass system is so robust let's try and make a few distinct characters. I won't place many restrictions on them.

7. Fighter Druid that is comparable to a Fighter or a Druid at level 5.

Picking on this one because it's so easy:

Fighter 2, Moon Druid 3. Casts Pass Without Trace and then wildshapes into a Polar Bear. Finds an enemy, then everybody in the party (hopefully) gets a surprise round and the Polar Bear Action Surges for a total of 2d8+4d6+20 (43) points of damage (mod hit probability at +7), then d8+2d6+10 (21) on the next round, which makes his alpha strike total 65 damage. Compare with the Fighter 5 who's attacking four times, say with GWM, for a total of 8d6+16 (44) (mod hit probability at +7) or 8d6+56 (84) (mod hit probability at +2). Every round after that, the Fighter/Druid is doing 21 damage mod hit probability, and the Fighter 5 is doing 22 mod hit probability, or 42 with a lower to-hit.

To make this concrete, in a cage match against an AC 17 CR 6 Young White Dragon, the Fighter/Druid has an alpha strike of 37.20 damage plus 12.40 DPR after that. The Fighter 5 has an alpha strike of 26.60 DPR plus 13.30 DPR after that.

Against an AC 13 CR 7 T-Rex, the Fighter/Druid has an alpha strike of 50.10 damage plus 16.70 DPR after that. The Fighter 5 has an alpha strike of 43 damage plus 21.70 DPR after that.

There are other features, e.g. the Fighter/Druid has 84 extra HP per short rest and spells like Goodberry/Entangle/Faerie Fire, but the Fighter 5 has superiority dice and a higher AC.

They are comparable. Neither dominates the other.

 

[MoonSong]

There are an infinite number of prime numbers. There are an infinite number of non-prime numbers. Infinite cannot be greater than infinite. Therefore your example doesn't work because illogically there are the same number of prime numbers as non-prime numbers.

Apparently infinity is not that simple. I thought there was infinity and that was it, but it seems there is infinity and then super infinity and when you think there is nothing greater there's super infinity two and three, and then super infinity god that stands no chance against the infinite god of destruction...

 

[FrogReaver]

Apparently infinity is not that simple. I thought there was infinity and that was it, but it seems there is infinity and then super infinity and when you think there is nothing greater there's super infinity two and three, and then super infinity god that stands no chance against the infinite god of destruction...

Not to detail the thread but there is a mathematical concept of cardinality of infinite sets. Some infinite sets can be paired with other infinite sets in a 1 to 1 relationship. Other infinite sets cannot be paired in this way. This is how one kind of infinite set can be deemed bigger than another infinite set.

 

[Ancalagon]

I'm rather happy that I can re-create the 2nd ed fighter mage thief with an eldrich knight with the criminal background

... sort of.

... and maybe that is for the best?

 

[FrogReaver]

This may be the first example I'm seeing of a multiclass character that is comparable to any of it's single class components at level 5. I don't have a compelling enough argument to show that missing out on the Druids level 3 spells would make the character inherently inferior even though one may could present the case that there are a couple of druid spells that can single handedly turn combats. It's not as easy of an argument to make for his spells as it is for a clerics or wizards.

So congratulations and well done! You have given the first example I'd deem as comparable.

Picking on this one because it's so easy:

Fighter 2, Moon Druid 3. Casts Pass Without Trace and then wildshapes into a Polar Bear. Finds an enemy, then everybody in the party (hopefully) gets a surprise round and the Polar Bear Action Surges for a total of 2d8+4d6+20 (43) points of damage (mod hit probability at +7), then d8+2d6+10 (21) on the next round, which makes his alpha strike total 65 damage. Compare with the Fighter 5 who's attacking four times, say with GWM, for a total of 8d6+16 (44) (mod hit probability at +7) or 8d6+56 (84) (mod hit probability at +2). Every round after that, the Fighter/Druid is doing 21 damage mod hit probability, and the Fighter 5 is doing 22 mod hit probability, or 42 with a lower to-hit.

To make this concrete, in a cage match against an AC 17 CR 6 Young White Dragon, the Fighter/Druid has an alpha strike of 37.20 damage plus 12.40 DPR after that. The Fighter 5 has an alpha strike of 26.60 DPR plus 13.30 DPR after that.

Against an AC 13 CR 7 T-Rex, the Fighter/Druid has an alpha strike of 50.10 damage plus 16.70 DPR after that. The Fighter 5 has an alpha strike of 43 damage plus 21.70 DPR after that.

There are other features, e.g. the Fighter/Druid has 84 extra HP per short rest and spells like Goodberry/Entangle/Faerie Fire, but the Fighter 5 has superiority dice and a higher AC.

They are comparable. Neither dominates the other.

 

[FrogReaver]

Here's a completely non-cantrip one:

Shadow Monk 3/Rogue 2 is fantastic. Cunning Action and Stealth +18-19? Yes, please.

Makes a terrifying low-level villain for the PCs. The one I used was actually a Shadow Monk 7/Rogue 2 but the way things played out, Shadow Monk 3/Rogue 2 would have been more than enough. Low DPR but the PCs just can't find him to hit him back, so they have to fall back on active perception (Search action) and readied actions.

I think that Monk 5 is so much better than Monk 3 rogue 2 that they are not comparable. I also believe rogue 5 would be better than it as well. With that said I understand your goal was to push stealth as high early as possible and this character achieves that better than most I've seen.

However, Consider a Monk 5 with 18 dex (since he gets the stat bump). With proficiency in stealth and pass without trace activated and +4 dex mod he comes in at 17 dex. The monk 3/rogue 2 you created comes in at 19.

IMO, all you have done at level 5 is created a watered down and less powerful monk with +2 higher stealth than he normally would have.

With that said I see a lot of benefit to adding rogue to monk post level 5 if one desired.

 

[FrogReaver]

Ranger 3/Fighter 2: Hordebreaker. Not as effective against a single target, but that's why you multiclass- for variety. Doubling up on Fighting styles is nice even if one of them's just going to be +1 AC. Hunter's Mark puts your damage ahead of a Fighter 5, and if you dual wield even moreso.

You are no where near a level 5 Ranger in effectiveness. You gain an extra fighting style and action surge and second wind. You give up, 2 level 2 spell slots, 1 level 1 spell slot, extra attack, stat bump.

IMO, your combination is simply not comparable a level 5 ranger.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Apparently infinity is not that simple. I thought there was infinity and that was it, but it seems there is infinity and then super infinity and when you think there is nothing greater there's super infinity two and three, and then super infinity god that stands no chance against the infinite god of destruction...

Actually both infinitys in this regard are equal as both are countable. Same goes for fractions. Real numbers are one higher degree of infinite as they are not countable.