D&D 5E Multiclass vs. hybrid subclasses

Yunru, "or" was the correct word choice. I couldn't have said "and" because almost no mutliclass is going to be comparable to both level 5 versions of the classes making it up. So while you can technically be right with the English language about my phrase being able to mean it the way you are using it now (the inclusive vs exclusive "or" problem). It's obvious I did not mean it that way. If it wasn't obvious before then it should be now.

So, Ranger 3/Fighter 2 is not comparable to a Ranger 5. Thus, you have not provided an example that meets the intent of my request. I've stated my case. The extra fighting style, 2nd wind and action surge is far behind 2 level 2 spells slots, 1 level 1 spell slot, extra attack and a stat bump. Those are the only differences in Ranger 5 and Ranger 3/Fighter 2.

Your logic is highly flawed (which is me being polite since it's straight up wrong).
Either way you take "or" (inclusive or exclusive) if I satisfy one of the conditions I have satisfied both. So no, it does provide an example that satisfies your request because you yourself state that being comparable to a Fighter 5 is enough.
 

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Your logic is highly flawed (which is me being polite since it's straight up wrong).
Either way you take "or" (inclusive or exclusive) if I satisfy one of the conditions I have satisfied both. So no, it does provide an example that satisfies your request because you yourself state that being comparable to a Fighter 5 is enough.

So you agree that a Ranger 3/Fighter 2 is not comparable to a Ranger 5?
 


What are the pros and cons of using a hybrid class (e.g., EK or arcane trickster) compared to multiclassing?

Hybrid pros:
- don't lose any ASIs
- extra tricks not available in "pure" classes
- often less demanding attribute requirements

Multiclass pros:
- mix and match levels as you please, rather than preset ratios
- more options than hybrid classes

What else?
Lots of less good advice in this thread.

In general: you don't lose any ASIs by multiclassing, assuming you stick to four level chunks.

Fighter levels synch wonderfully with any martial build.

Spellcasters generally want to stick to their single class. There is few reasons to postpone your spellcasting prowess.

Eldritch Blast with +Cha is an exception.

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Not at all. For one thing "comparable" is undefinable. For another your argument for them not being comparable consists of dismissing the features gained as unimportant.

Well if you believe ranger 3/fighter 2 is comparable to both ranger 5 and fighter 5 then let's have the discussion on comparing it to ranger 5 since the Ranger 3/Fighter 2 has more in common with the Ranger 5 than fighter 5.

Here's what the Ranger 3/Fighter 2 gets that the Ranger 5 does not:
Additional fighting style (likely +1 defense)
second wind
action surge

Here's what the Ranger 5 gets that the Ranger 3/Fighter 2 does not
2 - 2nd level spell slots
1 - additional first level spell slot
extra attack
stat bump/feat

More directly. 1 second level spell slot gives a comparable amount of healing to fighter 2nd wind. Action surge allows 1 additional attack per short rest. Extra attack allows an extra attack at will. Fighting style of +1 defense is then left to compete with stat bump/feat.

I know how I would compare these abilities. I don't see how anyone could come away thinking those two ability sets made for a comparable character.
 

Well if you believe ranger 3/fighter 2 is comparable to both ranger 5 and fighter 5 then let's have the discussion on comparing it to ranger 5 since the Ranger 3/Fighter 2 has more in common with the Ranger 5 than fighter 5.

Here's what the Ranger 3/Fighter 2 gets that the Ranger 5 does not:
Additional fighting style (likely +1 defense)
second wind
action surge

Here's what the Ranger 5 gets that the Ranger 3/Fighter 2 does not
2 - 2nd level spell slots
1 - additional first level spell slot
extra attack
stat bump/feat

More directly. 1 second level spell slot gives a comparable amount of healing to fighter 2nd wind. Action surge allows 1 additional attack per short rest. Extra attack allows an extra attack at will. Fighting style of +1 defense is then left to compete with stat bump/feat.

I know how I would compare these abilities. I don't see how anyone could come away thinking those two ability sets made for a comparable character.

You're completely right.
Action Surge is far and above more valuable than an extra attack. Having a completely extra action to take however you wish, now and in the future, is vastly superior to +1 attack, especially for anyone that can cast spells.
Second Wind doesn't require a spell slot and refreshes on a short rest, so is vastly superior to a level 2 heealing spell.
Fighting Style is of varied use. If you want to be effective in both melee and range, picking up TWF and Archery is great, but an ASI is going to be better.
 

I totally understand why they do. I don't deny roleplay considerations can TRUMP mechanical considerations. However, the fact that when it comes to multiclassing the roleplay considerations often do have to trump mechanical considerations is what informs my belief that multiclassing the 5e way is a poor vehicle to getting the character one wants to play. In general there shouldn't be such a wide gap between single class character concepts and character concepts that require more than 1 class.

I think framed this way we will both agree:
Multiclassing allows the existing classes/subclasses to cover a wider array of character concepts. It doesn't typically do so in the most mechanically efficient way but when no other option exists for a particular concept then it's not a terrible way to reach that concept out of the "building blocks" already provided in the existing classes.

However, any concept multiclassing can create, it would be better filled mechanically by a class/subclass specifically designed for the concept.
With that in mind, based upon what you have seen with common multiclass combinations and such, what sort of classes or subclasses do you think are lacking in the game as-is?

Yes, what is generally a bad mechanical character may shine in some specific campaign settings. Yes there are exceptions to every rule, to every generalization. With that said our discussion is supposed to be about pros and cons of the multiclass system to hybrid system. Here's the rub. The hybrid system allows for that exact character concept in a mechanically powerful way. None of the current classes/subclasses cover that concept but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be better covered by a hybrid class+subclass whether homebrew or official when wotc gets to it.
The hybrid system is far from perfect in that regard, as it can be just as dependent on the subclass abilities themselves. Not all subclasses were created equal. It is too absolute of an argument, IMHO, to say that a hybrid allows for "the exact character concept in a mechanically powerful way." I would instead argue that it allows for an approximate character concept. It's often that dissonant approximation that creates the rub for many a multiclasser.

Well that kind of is a very big what. Delaying powerful class abilities for piddly little class abilities from another class.
Herein may be one of the other points of contention in this discussion. If I understand you correctly, you place a greater value on what you perceive as reaching "powerful class abilities" earlier over what a character potentially gains from multiclassing into another class. This strikes me as a difference of priorities rather than an accurate assessment of how "piddy" mutliclassing or those other class abilities are. You seem to be advocating for "vertical class progression," for lack of knowing a better term, that values obtaining depth through gaining "more powerful" class abilities sooner. I think many multiclassers tend to place greater value on "horizontal class progression." They do not mind delaying powerful class abilities, because that is not their objective. Many generally prefer creating well-rounded characters, or, in other words, a character with "horizontal depth" rather than "vertical depth." This leads to the question of whether which approach has the greater volume. Obviously that depends on the particular build. But I don't think that a single-class character is inherently more effective than a multiclassed character.
 

Yes. Wrong post quoted. ;)
Missing stunning strike is indeed a hit and I agree. However ranger 5 vs the fighter multiclass I wrote about is a tough one.
I probably value defense a lot higher than you. Depending on the party composition it may be important.

I also don't consider a fighter bard multiclasd as bad as you. Starting fighter gives you very high AC and CON save proficiency. Even without using weapons all that much you can now actually stand in melee and hold your concentration. So consider fighter 1 or 2 and bard 3 or 4. Make it 1/4 to not lose the ability score increase. Be a half elf. Have Str 16, Dex8, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 16 Dual wield Hand axes. You even have cutting words to use as a reaction so using the bonus action is not terrible. If you really want AC, use a longsword and a shield and defensive style. AC 19 at level 1 Probably more at 5. You still have an ability score increase left. Yeah you muss out level 3 spells but you make up fir it with reliability.

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For the Fighter bard you are speaking of. Starting fighter does make it much easier in the early levels, that's for sure. But by level 5 we are looking at a different comparison.

The right bard subclass gets medium armor and shields and martial weapon proficiencies.
So the differences are pure bard gets:
Short rest bardic inspiration
3rd level spells
Proficiency wisdom saves (I only mention this because many fighters later on take a feat for proficiency with wisdom saves)

The fighter bard gets:
Proficiency con saves (+3 to con saves at level 5)
second wind
+1 ac with a longsword / shield
proficiency heavy armor

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I think I value third level spells and bardic inspiration much higher than you. lol
 

For the Fighter bard you are speaking of. Starting fighter does make it much easier in the early levels, that's for sure. But by level 5 we are looking at a different comparison.

The right bard subclass gets medium armor and shields and martial weapon proficiencies.
So the differences are pure bard gets:
Short rest bardic inspiration
3rd level spells
Proficiency wisdom saves (I only mention this because many fighters later on take a feat for proficiency with wisdom saves)

The fighter bard gets:
Proficiency con saves (+3 to con saves at level 5)
second wind
+1 ac with a longsword / shield
proficiency heavy armor

-----
I think I value third level spells and bardic inspiration much higher than you. lol
Except of course, that you cherry pick level 5. Try it with any other level and your argument falls apart. Level 6? Lose magical secrets for Fighter 1 abilities.
Level 4? Lose an ASI for Fighter 1 abilities. Etc.

All those "big" loses you hack of? Not lost, just a level later.
 

With that in mind, based upon what you have seen with common multiclass combinations and such, what sort of classes or subclasses do you think are lacking in the game as-is?

It depends on what you mean.

I could answer that question with 3-4 different answers.
Do you want me to answer in regards to what character concepts can't be reached and effective by some specific level using the current multiclass rules?
Do you want me to answer in regards to what character concepts are mechanically ineffective at level 5?
Do you want me to answer based on what I can fluff around an existing class to get the concept I want?


The hybrid system is far from perfect in that regard, as it can be just as dependent on the subclass abilities themselves. Not all subclasses were created equal. It is too absolute of an argument, IMHO, to say that a hybrid allows for "the exact character concept in a mechanically powerful way." I would instead argue that it allows for an approximate character concept. It's often that dissonant approximation that creates the rub for many a multiclasser.

What makes you think anything I say is so absolute there are no exceptions ever? It's easy to beat down a viewpoint when you constantly characterize it in the most extreme way possible.

Multiclassing can give a sufficient final product at higher levels. I've been adamant that it's not as bad post level 5. It does have mechanical issues at level 5. Thus, the popularity of eldritch blast multiclass combinations. Eldritch blast bypasses the normal mechanical issues of 5e multiclassing and thus you see a large number of eldritch blast multiclasses. It's one of the most common examples.

However, a class/subclass designated explicitly to your concept should never have mechanical issues and will have an organic feel when it comes to leveling as your character concept of choice. The class/subclass may not exist yet but that doesn't mean that one couldn't be created that fit your concept nearly perfectly. There's always going to be some level of approximation seeing as we are dealing with a discrete leveling system that works on tradeoffs (take one thing instead of something else).

Now with the right class/subclass you should be easily able to hit post level 5 and have your concept in tact the whole time from level 1 on. Then multiclassing because useful to give some variability without having to create many slightly different iterations of similar classes/subclasses.

Herein may be one of the other points of contention in this discussion. If I understand you correctly, you place a greater value on what you perceive as reaching "powerful class abilities" earlier over what a character potentially gains from multiclassing into another class. This strikes me as a difference of priorities rather than an accurate assessment of how "piddy" mutliclassing or those other class abilities are. You seem to be advocating for "vertical class progression," for lack of knowing a better term, that values obtaining depth through gaining "more powerful" class abilities sooner. I think many multiclassers tend to place greater value on "horizontal class progression." They do not mind delaying powerful class abilities, because that is not their objective. Many generally prefer creating well-rounded characters, or, in other words, a character with "horizontal depth" rather than "vertical depth." This leads to the question of whether which approach has the greater volume. Obviously that depends on the particular build. But I don't think that a single-class character is inherently more effective than a multiclassed character.

How can anyone argue when you put it in that light, but that's not quite the case.

It's all relative to the other members of your party. If everyone decides to multiclass 2 levels pre level 5 then it's not nearly as big of an issue. The DM can scale encounters accordingly and all is well since the party is on roughly an even playing field. However, if the rest of the party takes the big jump at level 5 and gets their level 5 abilities (extra attack, fireball, spirit guardians, stunning strike, etc...) then you will be significantly behind until you get one of those abilities as well.

You can try to paint the picture that you are gaining more "options" and versatility but what you may gain in versatility in 5e is not going to come close to bridging that power gap. There's not enough horizontal versatility to be had pre level 5 to accomplish that goal.

As I stated above if the idea is a well rounded character or to fulfill a character concept then classes and subclasses will accomplish that goal better pre level 5. It's just the class with the features in it you want needs to first be designed.
 

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