D&D 5E Multiclass vs. hybrid subclasses

[FrogReaver]

Except of course, that you cherry pick level 5. Try it with any other level and your argument falls apart. Level 6? Lose magical secrets for Fighter 1 abilities.
Level 4? Lose an ASI for Fighter 1 abilities. Etc.

All those "big" loses you hack of? Not lost, just a level later.

Then multiclass later. I'm fine with post level 5 multiclassing.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Except of course, that you cherry pick level 5. Try it with any other level and your argument falls apart. Level 6? Lose magical secrets for Fighter 1 abilities.
Level 4? Lose an ASI for Fighter 1 abilities. Etc.

All those "big" loses you hack of? Not lost, just a level later.

And even then the loss is not as big as you may think. Spells are only recovered with long rests, while second wind and good AC keeps you going for quite a while. You can also habe only one concentration spell active and must be careful not to lose them due to damage.
So depending on party composition and dm style I would place my bets on the multiclass character.

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[Yunru]

Then multiclass later. I'm fine with post level 5 multiclassing.

Yes, just multiclass later to get those proficiencies you only get by starting in a class.
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Edit: I feel I must state the tongue-in-cheek intent of this post. Inflection on the internet? Impossible!

 

[FrogReaver]

Yes, just multiclass later to get those proficiencies you only get by starting in a class.
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Exactly. You look only at the final product. Anything I say I will have at level X you will just say you will have at X+2 and few additional things so you always find it no big deal. The difference in level 5 abilities and non level 5 abilities is vast. Yes you may have a slightly more desirable level 6 or 7 or 8 character because you started in a class that gave con saves but that's simply the multiclassing fallacy of looking at the "end result". Unless you are starting at those levels then you have to play the character through the lower levels and multiclassing to make a slightly more desirable level 6 or 7 or 8 character will have a major impact on the desirability of your level 5, 6 or 7 character. Not to mention we will have nearly the same thing happen again at 11.

 

[FrogReaver]

And even then the loss is not as big as you may think. Spells are only recovered with long rests, while second wind and good AC keeps you going for quite a while. You can also habe only one concentration spell active and must be careful not to lose them due to damage.
So depending on party composition and dm style I would place my bets on the multiclass character.

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the extra spell slots the level 5 ranger gets can be used for healing if desired. The ranger gets good berry. You will get a lot more total hp out of the rangers spells than 2nd wind in that example. 2nd wind has a combat use so I'd rate them comparable enough. Except the Ranger's spells are more versatile, they can give the party bonus stealth (pass without trace), they can be extra damage, they can be spike growth, darkvision, silence, etc...

I rate the Ranger 5's extra spell slots a little higher than 2nd wind in that comparison... I don't see how anyone could not?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

the extra spell slots the level 5 ranger gets can be used for healing if desired. The ranger gets good berry. You will get a lot more total hp out of the rangers spells than 2nd wind in that example. 2nd wind has a combat use so I'd rate them comparable enough. Except the Ranger's spells are more versatile, they can give the party bonus stealth (pass without trace), they can be extra damage, they can be spike growth, darkvision, silence, etc...

I rate the Ranger 5's extra spell slots a little higher than 2nd wind in that comparison... I don't see how anyone could not?

That is bad if you can't see that.

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[FormerlyHemlock]

I think that Monk 5 is so much better than Monk 3 rogue 2 that they are not comparable. I also believe rogue 5 would be better than it as well. With that said I understand your goal was to push stealth as high early as possible and this character achieves that better than most I've seen.

However, Consider a Monk 5 with 18 dex (since he gets the stat bump). With proficiency in stealth and pass without trace activated and +4 dex mod he comes in at 17 dex. The monk 3/rogue 2 you created comes in at 19.

IMO, all you have done at level 5 is created a watered down and less powerful monk with +2 higher stealth than he normally would have.

It's not about the stealth modifier. It's about the ability to actually use stealth in combat to gain advantage on attacks and avoid taking damage in return. Your Monk 5 can't do so effectively, unless he's a Goblin. He won't terrorize the PCs--they will just kill him.

 

[FrogReaver]

It's not about the stealth modifier. It's about the ability to actually use stealth in combat to gain advantage on attacks and avoid taking damage in return. Your Monk 5 can't do so effectively, unless he's a Goblin. He won't terrorize the PCs--they will just kill him.

So make him a goblin. Tada. (meaning that more as a joke)

I actually was thinking monk could use ki to bonus action hide. I checked. It appears I was wrong.

Now with all this said, stealth is run very different in campaigns and I'm not about to get drawn into a how to run stealth debate. So I can't argue with how you are doing it here. But I will note that such tricks wouldn't work in many other DND campaigns because of how stealth is treated.

Also, it's somewhat odd to need to create an enemy out of PC classes. If you want an enemy that can do those things then just make one. You don't need any multiclassing rules for that.

I still have a hard time believing that a player that's a player rogue in your game can constantly shoot and hide and shoot and hide and would get any benefit from doing so, or that once something has a clear line of sight to him that he cannot see him. We ran stealth that way one campaign. We will never do it again. Rogue way strong when you can hide almost every turn to get advantage when you attack almost every turn. And that was without treating him as invisible after he hid regardless of any change in circumstances.

 

[Yunru]

I still have a hard time believing that a player that's a player rogue in your game can constantly shoot and hide and shoot and hide and would get any benefit from doing so, or that once something has a clear line of sight to him that he cannot see him. We ran stealth that way one campaign. We will never do it again. Rogue way strong when you can hide almost every turn to get advantage when you attack almost every turn. And that was without treating him as invisible after he hid regardless of any change in circumstances.

Getting off topic, but the Goblins can do that, and they mention specifically that them doing so every round for advantage is accounted for.

Now why if the Goblins have an ability to hide they're supposed to be able to use every round for advantage, would the Rogues not be supposed to use their ability to hide every round to get advantage?

 

[FrogReaver]

Getting off topic, but the Goblins can do that, and they mention specifically that them doing so every round for advantage is accounted for.

Now why if the Goblins have an ability to hide they're supposed to be able to use every round for advantage, would the Rogues not be supposed to use their ability to hide every round to get advantage?

I'm not familiar with the quote you speak of. Can you help me out?