D&D 5E Multiclassing ability score prerequisites—required for balance or an unnecessary hurdle?

[Blue]

I think that requirement should be lowered to 12.

13 as an odd number is just a polite way to tell you, you need 14.

Could not disagree more.

1. In point buy a 13 is where you can get paying only 1 point per - a 14 costs 2 extra points. In rolling 3d6, a 13+ is half again more likely to happen then a 14+. With 4d6 drop lowest it's about a third more likely. It's a dividing line.

2. Designers for multiple editions have looked for a meaning for odd ability scores. The few feats with requirements do the same thing.

Basically, a 13 or higher is a much easier place to reach then 14 or higher and gives players a choice - do I want to go the extra bit to get a +2 modifier or do I want to go for the easier route? Especially if you're just getting a bit. If you are grabbing a level of life cleric for heavy armor, healing spell boost and Bless, you might not want to ditch your CON or whatever to raise your WIS from +1 to +2.

 

[Blue]

First up, it applies to int 12 as well. Now you have to study magic for 4 more levels, and get more intelligent in order to give to magic.

I see this is that years studying prior to starting adventuring can make even someone ill-suited at least minimally competent, but you need to have some talent in order to merge two different disciplines and use them both together. Seems okay to me.

Secondly how does it make sense that being unable to stop studying magic is one of the biggest drawbacks?

This is because D&D doesn't have an "abandon path" mechanic. 5e multiclassing is additive, and assumes you are using everything you have from both (which includes your skills, weapon and armor proficiencies, HPs and saves as well as your class features). If it had a way to say "F-orget this, magic is no good, let me bang on things with a club", it would work.

To be honest, you could write that into your backstory - take an appropriate background for skills and say you tried to study magic but couldn't make it. 5e lacks a formal mechanic once you reach 1st level.

But the example - I am bad at casting magic, which means I can flawlessly cast magic under pressure while also also working an unrelated discipline - is just as off-putting.

 

[Kalshane]

Still, it was declared by a poster that a rogue/paladin multiclass was "impossible" and I gave a famous example of one existing.

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It's definitely not impossible, even in point-buy (I have a tiefling vengeance paladin/assassin rogue in one of the games I'm playing in. He's only got a 16 Dex at 8th level, but he still plays fine and does what I envisioned the character to do.) Rolled stats just potentially makes it a lot easier.

 

[Horwath]

Could not disagree more.

1. In point buy a 13 is where you can get paying only 1 point per - a 14 costs 2 extra points. In rolling 3d6, a 13+ is half again more likely to happen then a 14+. With 4d6 drop lowest it's about a third more likely. It's a dividing line.

2. Designers for multiple editions have looked for a meaning for odd ability scores. The few feats with requirements do the same thing.

Basically, a 13 or higher is a much easier place to reach then 14 or higher and gives players a choice - do I want to go the extra bit to get a +2 modifier or do I want to go for the easier route? Especially if you're just getting a bit. If you are grabbing a level of life cleric for heavy armor, healing spell boost and Bless, you might not want to ditch your CON or whatever to raise your WIS from +1 to +2.

what would be a better idea?

each score with its own modifier

0: -10
1: -9
2: -8
3: -7
4: -6
5: -5
6: -4
7: -3
8: -2
9: -1
10:+0
11:+1
12:+2
13:+3
14:+4
15:+5
16:+6
17:+7
18:+8
19:+9
20:+10

Max for PCs, 15(+5)

point buy; 15 pts;

start with 9 in all.

10: 1pt,
11: 2pts,
12: 3pts,
13: 5pts,(max for point buy)

rolls: 5d2+4(9-14, av 11,5)

 

[Saeviomagy]

I see this is that years studying prior to starting adventuring can make even someone ill-suited at least minimally competent, but you need to have some talent in order to merge two different disciplines and use them both together. Seems okay to me.

Except the rules actually have them stop progression on one of the two paths. You somehow have to be intelligent to stop learning new spells.

This is because D&D doesn't have an "abandon path" mechanic. 5e multiclassing is additive, and assumes you are using everything you have from both (which includes your skills, weapon and armor proficiencies, HPs and saves as well as your class features). If it had a way to say "F-orget this, magic is no good, let me bang on things with a club", it would work.

No, it would still be stupid. You don't just instantly forget things because you choose to learn new ones. If someone is struggling at an engineering job because they're no good with maths, they still won't forget how to do maths immediately upon taking up a job in sales. And they're not unable to take the job in sales because they're not great at engineering...

To be honest, you could write that into your backstory - take an appropriate background for skills and say you tried to study magic but couldn't make it. 5e lacks a formal mechanic once you reach 1st level.

Backstory schmackstory. Nobody gives a crap about what happened to your character before you started play.

But the example - I am bad at casting magic, which means I can flawlessly cast magic under pressure while also also working an unrelated discipline - is just as off-putting.

"I am bad at casting magic, so my only choice is to continue studying it until I can cast 9th level spells" is far more dissonant than "I'm bad with magic, so I'll take up studying swordsmanship, and not lose the ability to cast the low level spells I can already cast".

I feel like you've started with the position of liking attribute minimums as written, and worked backwards to try to justify it.

 

[Aldarc]

what would be a better idea?

each score with its own modifier

I think both Green Ronin's True20 and Fantasy Age systems work with this sort of attribute system. But we are stuck with these archaic features of D&D for the foreseeable future.

 

[Mephista]

Backstory schmackstory. Nobody gives a crap about what happened to your character before you started play.

Please keep your One True Wayism to yourself. You might not care, but I do, and lots of others do as well. Hells! We have entire mechanics (background) that rely on just that now! I happen to be one of those people that think that the story of each class should matter. So, yes, I very much take into background as well as curent story issues with what player characters can learn.

5e assumes that, if you're playing a pure wizard, you're not going to be putting a 12 or lower in INT when the book is suggesting it as one of your big attributes. That's kinda silly and really kind of a strawman, something to try and hit and beat like a dead horse when, for the most part? Its not going to be coming up outside of a roll-for-stats game getting some seriously bad rolls and has to keep them. This 12 and below INT wizard is nothing more than white-room theorycraft that is just not going to show up in the overwhelming majority of games. Realistically speaking, the only time I ever see it show up is when someone is planning on multiclassing and is dumping INT as much as they can.

Multi-classing rules don't exist for the sake of people who want a career change, or if the players want a hybrid character. That's not what they acomplish. Hells, even in previous games, that's not what they did. Hybridization is acomplished through subclasses now - that's why there's the bladesinger, the eldritch knight, the divine soul, etc. There are no retraining rules, like in previous editions. What the MC rules in 5e are for? Level dipping. You take 1-3 levels of one class to enhance the abilities of a second so you can be better at said second's. There's no "dropping" being a wizard because you fully intend on keeping all those wizard abilities and using them in the second class. The example about swapping from engineering to sales is nothing more than a red herring, because its ignoring that, for this comparison to hold true, you'd somehow need to use engineering skills to work with your sales skills. Generally speaking, engineering and sales don't use the same skills sets, while a wizard-turned-rogue will still be using wizard skills in their "job."

I feel like you've started with the position of liking attribute minimums as written, and worked backwards to try to justify it.

Glass houses, throwing stones. Same thing to you, but adding "dis-" in front of "liking."

 

[pdegan2814]

To what extent though does Critical Role follow the multiclassing rules? My impression is that since the game tends to be more narrative and character-focused, the rules often take a backseat for "rule of cool" character and story moments.

That's what I thought at first when Vax mc'd into Paladin, that Mercer had waived the Str req for story purposes, but apparently Vax has a Str of 14 so he qualified. I don't know if he raised it with his previous ASI in preparation, I'd have to rewatch the early episodes to see what his scores where at Level 8-12.

 

[KahlessNestor]

That's what I thought at first when Vax mc'd into Paladin, that Mercer had waived the Str req for story purposes, but apparently Vax has a Str of 14 so he qualified. I don't know if he raised it with his previous ASI in preparation, I'd have to rewatch the early episodes to see what his scores where at Level 8-12.

The link I gave had character sheets for various levels.

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[MoonSong]

@Blue , @Mephista, I don't share [MENTION=5890]Saeviomagy[/MENTION]'s view on that background doesn't matter. But the problem with the background is that background is stuff you don't get to play. It is there, in the past. Now the example given wasn't "Wizard academy reject that turned to something else" as a character concept, it was a case of "My character is not entirely conventional and cannot ever stop taking levels in the same class regardless of what happens in game". Let's try with something else, how about a dex paladin with low strength? One played by a thespian that barely ever speaks out of character? Now something happens in game that makes it natural for the paladin to shift paths -maybe the order did something unspeakable, maybe the god was evil all along, maybe someone dear by the paladin had to be sacrificed for grater good- whatever it is, it makes zero sense for the paladin to remain a paladin and keep getting good at being a paladin. But what now? It might take 8 levels for the paladin to gain enough strength to be allowed to multiclass out, and the campaign doesn't even lasts that long. Oh but Powergamer mcMunchkin planed a powerful paladin combo from first level up and he can liberally take levels in as many classes as he wants/needs for his toon with zero personality and is always metagamed.

And Mephista, do you have any quote from Mearls, Crawford, et al., that supports this thing about Multiclassing in 5e being meant for dips and not for hybrids and path changing? Because traditionally it has been that, dualclassing meant there was no turn back, Ad&D multiclassing was hybridizing , and in 3e monk and paladin were explicitly changing paths without the chance for return.