Multiple Metamagic Feats (again)

[ruleslawyer]

'Cause I feel like causing trouble:

The reason that you're confused is because you are taking a specific rule and trying to make it general.

The feats and metamagic rules specifically state that when mixing Maximize and Empower on the same spell they don't affect each other.

That's the only place any such rule is stated. There's nothing else that says, "When applying Widen spell and Enlarge spell, both apply to the base spell separately."

Therefore, they don't. If they did, you'd end up with really, really odd occurences.

For instance, consider a Widened, Maximized Fireball:

Would you say that it does maximum damage in a 20' radius and normal damage in a 20'-40' radius, or does it do maximum damage in a 40' radius?

Not this again.

I believe you are applying them incorrectly. Those feats are modifying different attributes of the same spell, so they both apply: the damage of the spell is maximized and the radius is Widened.

Twin, Quicken, and Repeat duplicate the base spell. They don't say that they duplicate other metamagic feats, so they don't.

Maximize and Empower modify the same attributes of the base spell, so each one is applied seperately. I believe the same would apply to any other set of feats that modify the same attribute.

We can debate it further, and it will probably end up just like the last time. Probably better not to hijack this thread. If you really want to debate it again, please start a seperate thread.

Since I missed this the first time (and can't find it), I was wondering if we might have a *civil* discussion on the matter (since judging from De Big Rules Monkey's tone, said discussion may have been less than such last time around).

Here's my problem:
The distinction between "different attributes of the same spell" and "same attributes of the base spell" does not appear in any of the above-mentioned feats. Why, therefore, should a Twinned, Maximized fireball NOT produce two maximized fireballs? There is a clear rule stated in the specific case of Empower + Maximize, but not anywhere else. Moreover, the entire Maximize/other feat problem really only seems to apply in the case of two specific feats (Twin and Repeat). Finally, does it really make sense that doubling a spell's effect (via Twin Spell) and doubling the radius of the spell (via Widen), which in many cases equates to "doubling a spell's effect," would be affected differently by Maximize or Empower?

Just musing, but would welcome input.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Well, you know my opinion.

The rules say what they say. They say that there's a special interaction between Empower and Maximize. Therefore, there's a special interaction between Empower and Maximize.

The rules do not say that there is a special interaction between, for instance, Maximize and Energy Admixture. Therefore, there is not a special interaction between Maximize and Energy Admixture.

I picked Energy Admixture because the feat, arguably by Caliban's reading, affects "the same attribute" - damage.

 

[Mistwell]

I know you are not looking for a houserule on this one. That said...were I running the universe, I'd let you combine them for the multiple effects if you are actually using a higher level spell slot to do it (so an empowered admixtured spell uses a spell slot 6 levels higher). I wouldn't let you do it if you are using an ability to do it (like some of the Incantatrix abilities, Divine Metamagic, the Lyracist ability, and similarly themed tricks to get around using the spell slot).

In other words, a 9th level spell that replicates the effects of an admixtured empowered fireball seems reasonable to me. A 3rd level spell boosted with divine metamagic to do this does not seem like a reasonable thing to me.