multiple ray sneak attacks

[Voadam]

Pax - not multiple attacks delivered separately (iterative attacks, two weapon fighting, rapid shot, etc), but multiple damage sources delivered in a single attack.

Manyshot. 3E Shuriken. The Orb spells from Tome and Blood. All of those could only deliver Sneak Attack damage on the first damage source. (Strictly, by the rules, if you threw three shuriken, only the first star, not the first hit, could be a sneak attack... so if your first missed and second and third hit, there was no Sneak Attack damage.)

If Scorching Ray follows the pattern of the Orb spells, only the first ray is eligible for sneak attack, since all three rays are in fact a single "attack" - even tough they use separate rolls and can be aimed at separate targets. Contrast this with Chill Touch, which requires a separate "attack" for each touch - if you want to deliver more than one in a round, you need to use a Full Attack Action after the spell has been cast.

-Hyp.

I'm trying to get rules quotes for 3.5 on this.

In 3.5 manyshot allows one attack roll and all the arrows go at the same opponent. It specifically limits precision damage. This seems different from multiple rays of one spell.

MANYSHOT [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +6
Benefit: As a standard action, you may fire two arrows at a single opponent within 30 feet. Both arrows use the same attack roll (with a –4 penalty) to determine success and deal damage normally (but see Special).
For every five points of base attack bonus you have above +6, you may add one additional arrow to this attack, to a maximum of four arrows at a base attack bonus of +16. However, each arrow after the second adds a cumulative –2 penalty on the attack roll (for a total penalty of –6 for three arrows and –8 for four).
Damage reduction and other resistances apply separately against each arrow fired.
Special: Regardless of the number of arrows you fire, you apply precision-based damage only once. If you score a critical hit, only the first arrow fired deals critical damage; all others deal regular damage.
A fighter may select Manyshot as one of his fighter bonus feats.
A 6th-level ranger who has chosen the archery combat style is treated as having Manyshot even if he does not have the prerequisites for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor.


Orb and scorching ray spells are all in one standard action, but are separate attacks requiring separate die rolls and can target separate opponents. Under the 3.5 rules as written, shouldn't they be treated similar to iterative attacks rather than manyshot? Point blank shot would apply to each ray, wouldn't it? Each ray can separately gain a critical hit, correct?

Why could a two weapon fighting or bow firing rogue get multiple sneak attacks in a round but an arcane trickster with scorching rays could not?

 

[Quidam]

Why could a two weapon fighting or bow firing rogue get multiple sneak attacks in a round but an arcane trickster with scorching rays could not?

Look at the respective attack bonuses. TWF, Manyshot- they all cause your attack bonus to take a hit for the pleasure of getting in those extra attacks. AND you have to burn a feat, at that. With the ray spells, you make several attacks- all with your highest attack bonus.

Now, I don't have a rules quote for you (and i really should- you'd think this would be spelled out in 3.wewantyerdough5), but from a balance standpoint, there's definitely a difference in the way the situations are handled.

 

[Magic Slim]

It's 3.0 Shuriken/Orb spells all over again. You'd think they would have clarified it in 3.5, but nooooooo, they were probably too busy stuffing manzanilla olives... bastards.

Slim

 

[Voadam]

Look at the respective attack bonuses. TWF, Manyshot- they all cause your attack bonus to take a hit for the pleasure of getting in those extra attacks. AND you have to burn a feat, at that. With the ray spells, you make several attacks- all with your highest attack bonus.

Now, I don't have a rules quote for you (and i really should- you'd think this would be spelled out in 3.wewantyerdough5), but from a balance standpoint, there's definitely a difference in the way the situations are handled.

On the one side, they are touch attacks with full attack bonuses. with a first level orb spell you can get 5, with a 4th level orb spell you can get ten, I believe. Only applicable against opponents within 30 feet who are denied dex against attack.

However, they take a spell which must be expended and then are gone for the day. Slightly countered by the ability to make wands.

Full attack actions multiple attacks against normal AC, and attack bonuses go down for TWF/Rapid shot and iterative attacks. However, this can be done round after round, fight after fight. Bow has same restrictions as orbs, but TWF can be done with flanking as well.

I see the power balances, I'm trying to get 3.5 rules definitions to give to the DM for applying to the arcane trickster in our group and the 3.0 T&B orb spells I recommended he take.

His view is separate rolls means separate attacks and from the rules as written, that looks right to me as well right now.

 

[HellHound]

The official ruling is NO. (for the sneak attack from the multiple ray spell)

The orb spells only get one sneak attack for the whole batch of them, applied to the first one. Since the orb spells are effectively ray spells, same rule applies.

This was handed out by both Customer Service and the Sage right after the release of T&B, to the best of my knowledge.