Multiple similar save ends effects

[DracoSuave]

(save ends) is the definition of when a Conditional Duration effect ends. Two applications of X ongoing Y damage are seperate effects, and therefore have seperate durations. Saving against one does not satisfy the end of the duration of the second, unrelated effect, and therefore the duration does not end.

In other words, if you have two ongoing 5 fire damage effects, you only apply 5 fire damage at the beginning of your turn because the effects do not stack. However, because they are two -seperate- effects, you check for the end of their Conditional Duration at the end of your turn seperately. If you save one, but not the other, you've ended one, but the other still affects you.

 

[DracoSuave]

p278 specifies one save per type of damage.

-Hyp.

No, it doesn't. It says you take seperate saving throws against different types of ongoing damage. It does not say, explicitly nor implicitly, that you overlap different effects into one saving throw. It merely says that you -apply- the greatest source of a singular type of ongoing damage.

If you make your save to end power A, you have not yet ended power B, even if their effects are redundant.

An example of this:

Let's say you use a power that applies the condition dazed (save ends) and your fellow party member used a power that applies dazed (save ends) and has sustain minor: The dazed enemy is also stunned until the end of your next turn

Now, the enemy makes his saving throw against your dazed condition, but that only ends the duration of -your- power. Your ally's power has not been ended, and so he still has the ability to sustain it for additional effect. The sustain duration, however, is not a part of the dazed condition, but it's a factor of the power itself.

The easiest way to remember it:

You make saving throws to end the duration of powers, not to end conditions. Conditions are simply the application of powers.

 

[Hypersmurf]

It says you take seperate saving throws against different types of ongoing damage.

It says you make separate saving throws against each type of ongoing damage.

Not against each instance, or each power; against the type of damage.

If you've been hit three times with ongoing poison damage, twice with ongoing fire damage, and once with ongoing cold damage, what saving throws do you make? A saving throw against poison, a saving throw against fire, and a saving throw against cold. A save against each type of damage, and there are three types represented in this example.

-Hyp.

 

[DracoSuave]

It says you make separate saving throws against each type of ongoing damage.

Not against each instance, or each power; against the type of damage.

If you've been hit three times with ongoing poison damage, twice with ongoing fire damage, and once with ongoing cold damage, what saving throws do you make? A saving throw against poison, a saving throw against fire, and a saving throw against cold. A save against each type of damage, and there are three types represented in this example.

-Hyp.

The example's context is when you're afflicted with multiple types of damage, and thusly, the wording is applied in that context. You're taking the phrasing out of context entirely.

Consult the same page, other half, the section on Durations. Save ends is the definition of a duration of an effect, according to that same page you described.

In this situation you have multiple effects on the same target, and thusly only the one with the longest duration applies.... but which effect is that when they are all conditional duration? It's the one you save last against. Which means, you still track the duration of each effect, only applying one. And how do you track duration?

Saving throws for each effect.

You don't make saving throws to end ongoing damage, per se, you make saving throws to end effects that apply ongoing damage. Saving throws are the condition that end effects with that type of conditional duration.

 

[Hypersmurf]

You don't make saving throws to end ongoing damage, per se, you make saving throws to end effects that apply ongoing damage.

The Ongoing Damage section disagrees twice.

Once in the section labelled 'Saving Throw': "Each round at the end of your turn, make a saving throw against ongoing damage. If you succeed, you stop taking the ongoing damage."

And once as noted before: "You make a separate saving throw against each damage type."

What do you save against? The ongoing damage. How many saves? A separate save against each damage type.

-Hyp.

 

[DracoSuave]

Then you have a situation where the assumptions you've extrapolated from Ongoing damage is contradicting the assumptions I've extrapolated from Conditional Durations of effects.

Let's see what CS has to say about it.

Let's say that my fighter has taken a hit from a monster that deals 10 ongoing fire damage, and an NPC that's hit me with a power that also deals 10 ongoing fire damage.

I already know I only actually take 10 ongoing fire damage at the end of my turn... however...

Question 1)
Do I make a singular saving throw against both sources, or do I make a saving throw for each?

Question 2)
What if the monster dealt 15 ongoing fire damage?

Question 3)
What if instead of 10 ongoing fire damage, the effect were 'dazed and ongoing 10 fire damage (save ends)'?

Question 3)
What if the NPC's power also had a sustain effect that allowed him to shift me so long as the damage continues?

On p278 it seems to imply that you save vs ongoing damage singularly, but on the same page under Conditional Durations, it seems to imply saving throws are how you measure the duration of effects and therefore they'd be counted seperately.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Then you have a situation where the assumptions you've extrapolated from Ongoing damage is contradicting the assumptions I've extrapolated from Conditional Durations of effects.

I'd say that your assumptions in the general case of conditional durations of effects are sound, but in the specific case of conditional durations of ongoing damage, there are specific rules that take precedence.

Ongoing damage is always [save ends], and there are specific rules governing those saving throws, found under the "Ongoing Damage" section on p278.

Let's see what CS has to say about it.

Here was my conversation with them two weeks ago:

p278 says "If effects deal ongoing damage of different types... make a separate saving throw against each damage type."

It also says "If effects deal ongoing damage of the same type... only the higher number applies."

Let's say a character is hit five times in one round, with effects that deal 5 ongoing fire damage (save ends), 10 ongoing fire damage (save ends), 5 ongoing poison damage (save ends), 5 ongoing poison damage (save ends), and 10 ongoing poison damage (save ends).

It's clear that the amount of damage he takes each round is 10 fire damage and 10 poison damage.

It's unclear how many saving throws he makes. Does he make two (one vs poison, which will remove all ongoing poison damage, and one vs fire, which will remove all ongoing fire damage)? Or does he make five (one vs each effect - so he could succeed at three saves, fail two, and still be taking some ongoing damage next round)?

The phrase "a separate save against each damage type" seems to imply one save vs poison, and one save vs fire. Is this accurate?

Thank you for writing.

It will require 2 saves. One for 10 ongoing fire damage and another for 10 ongoing poison damage.

Good Gaming!

Paul
Customer Service Representative
Wizards of the Coast

Hi - thanks for the prompt answer. It's the one the wording seems to indicate, but it leads to another question.

Let's say that someone is hit three times, with three different effects:
1. 5 ongoing poison damage (save ends), -2 penalty on saving throw.
2. 5 ongoing poison damage and dazed (save ends both).
3. 10 ongoing poison damage and weakened (save ends both).

On his turn, he takes 10 poison damage, and he is dazed and weakened. But how many saving throws does he make, and at which modifier, and which condition(s) can each save end?

You will need to make three separate saves at the end of your turn for each effect. The -2 will apply until that save is made.

Good Gaming!

So while he says "One save per type" in the first response, he says "One save per effect" in the second. I'm not sure exactly how much poison damage you retain in the second example if you make only one of the saves!

-Hyp.