Multiweapon Defense

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Amazingshafeman - have you read my post where I point out that you're reading / using the Two Weapon Defense feat incorrectly?

 

[amazingshafeman]

Amazingshafeman - have you read my post where I point out that you're reading / using the Two Weapon Defense feat incorrectly?

Yes. And thank you for the correction. Before that, I was asking myself why anyone would sacrifice an extra attack AND a feat for a mere +1 AC. Why not just use a shield at that point?

Actually, Multiweapon Fighting replaces TWF. It's no longer an option.

And this is where my logic stems from. Since Mutliweapon replaces TWF, why wouldn't Multiweapon Defense replace TWD? I realize it's infinitely more powerful, but those extra arms are included in the monster's CR and thereby the character's ECL.

I had more thoughts on this, but it got rather busy here at work.

 

[Coredump]

And this is where my logic stems from. Since Mutliweapon replaces TWF, why wouldn't Multiweapon Defense replace TWD? I realize it's infinitely more powerful, but those extra arms are included in the monster's CR and thereby the character's ECL.
(

It *does* just replace TWD. TWD says you can use TWF and also get a +1 AC. MWD says you can use MWF and also get a +1 AC.

OTOH, use it your way, each extra arm will provide a +1 shield bonus to AC.
Of course, since multiple shield bonuses don't stack.....

 

[amazingshafeman]

Of course, since multiple shield bonuses don't stack.....

I'd already realized this would come up, which is why the feat would be worded something like "provides a +1 per extra arm as a shield bonus," or some other wording to indicate it accumulates into one shield bonus. If multiweapon fighting replaces two weapon fighting, but also makes it more functional because of the extra arms, why wouldn't multiweapon defense do the same? Why would blocking attacks with two arms be the same as blocking attacks with four?

 

[Coredump]

TWD is to make up for not being able to use a shield. Since you can only use one shield, you only get the bonus of a single shield.


caveat: I may be misunderstanding.

TWD does *not* require you to lose your second attack.

If you want to swap attacks for AC, I would see no problem with that. I would word it as "you recieve a cumalitive +1 shield bonus for each off-hand attack you choose not to utilize during a full round attack." Thus, it does not help on a standard action attack, when you couldn't use the extra attacks anyway.
I may even allow this for iterative attacks, etc.

 

[the Jester]

Hmm, I like this idea. However, I'd make it a +1 shield bonus per two arms- that both matches TWD and keeps the bonus granted manageable.

 

[Coredump]

I don't know. Lets say you had a BAB of 11, and use two weapons. You can either take 3 attacks, or take one attack, and get a +2 AC. That seems like an underpowered trade to me.

So the 4 armed guy, can forgo his 3 extra attacks, but only gets a +3 AC. Hell, give it to him. (Remember, this only works for full attacks.)

 

[amazingshafeman]

Hmm, I like this idea. However, I'd make it a +1 shield bonus per two arms- that both matches TWD and keeps the bonus granted manageable.

Brilliant! This keeps it more inline with the intent of the original feat and makes sense logically within the bounds of the rules (in my mind, anyway). A creature with four arms has more parrying options than a normal human, likewise for six arms.

I think the final write up we playtest will be:

Mutliweapon Defense

Prereq.
Dex 15, Multiweapon Fighting

Benefit
When wielding two or more weapons, you gain a +1 cumulative shield bonus to your AC per pair of weapons weilded. Count each double weapon as two weapons.
When you are fighting defensively or using the full defense action, this shield bonus increases to +2 per pair.

Special
A fighter may select Multiweapon Defense as one of his fighter bonus feats.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I would rewrite this to be more like:

Multiweapon Defense

Prerequisites: Dex 15, Multiweapon Fighting, three or more hands

Benefit: When wielding two or more weapons (not including natural weapons or unarmed strikes), you gain a shield bonus to armor class equal to the number of pairs of weapons wielded. A double weapon counts as a pair of weapons. For example, a creature wielding four weapons would gain a +2 shield bonus to AC, as would a creature wielding a double weapon and two other weapons.

When you are fighting defensively or using the full defense action, double the bonus conferred by this feat.*

Special: A fighter may select Multiweapon Defense as one of his fighter bonus feats. This feat replaces Two-Weapon Defense for creatures with more than two arms.

The reason I say this is because a "+1 cumulative shield bonus" could be rules-lawyered into stacking with a buckler, for instance.

* I might also throw in "or when using Combat Expertise for 2 or more points" because I like that rule in Complete Adventurer, but that's up to you.

 

[amazingshafeman]

It makes perfect sense Patryn. Thanks for the help, guys. I'll shoot this past him and see how it goes.