Munskins/Power gaming - Two weapon fighting feat with two bastard sword

[Kae'Yoss]

I call munshins every body who choice feats just for power and not because this fit the idea they have about their characters.

You're too harsh. It may be powergaming. But munchkinism is far beyond powergaming.

And there is already a nice feat to have 2 points of extra damage with a weapon. It's weapon specialization. And greater weapon specialization.

No, really, there are a lot of other ways to maximize the damage output of a character. Better ways. After all, he has to spend two feats for that - two-weapon fighting and exotic weapon proficiency, and even then he'll have -4 on both attacks. Other characters will get weapon focus and short swords and have a +3 advantage, or longswords and wield oversized weapon and have a +2 advantage. Then, they can use that advantage to get rogue levels, say, 3 levels. Then they're on par again, but chances are that the other guy has +2d6 damage.

No, let him do it if he wants, unless you think that it should be physically impossible to wield two bastard swords. Otherwise he has to spend feats for this maneuver and still has a disadvantage to those with more reasonable TWF combos. I think at the end of the day, the other guy will have dealt more damage than our double-bastard-wielder. -2 is 10% higher miss chance, -3 15 %.

 

[TheEvil]

First point: This is not munchkinism or powergaming. He is using two feats and a weapon from the PHB. The bylaws on powergaming clearly require at least 3 'items' from 2 two different sources that are not part of the three core books before it qualifies. KaeYoss's exmple is a good one for powergaming. The charge of munchkinism also doesn't apply unless he is trying to use vague wording in one part of the rules to override clearly stated rules in another part, as spelled out in Section 1070-8C of the Munchkin Code.

Second point: As others have said, try not to mix D&D and what you think is realistic. You may have noticed that what is realistic tends to vary widely based no age, experience and temperment and I have yet to see anyone admit that one person's view of reality was more valid then their own. If your only problem is that you don't think the combo is realistic, then you are ignoring the overall lack of realism in the game. Also, he spent a feat to do an extra point or two of damage, EWP Bastard Sword. It also isn't any worse then a rogue locked in an empty 10'x10' room taking no damage from a fireball because he made his reflex save.

 

[focallength]

no big deal just take oversized TWF and you get a -2/-2 with two weapons. As far as power gaming it would depend on what the level of the game is a character that riping off 200 points of damage in a campaign where thats average is not powergaiming. Likewise power gaming just dosent apply to weapons and damage. A character with insane skill levels could also be powergaming. Theres a character in our group who has feats that give him insane armor class weapons that hit him break you have to pass a dc 16 save when within 20 feet of him or you cant take agressive actions, he dosent eat or sleep or affected by the elements or disease or...well you get the point and he dosent engage in combat at all, he just manipulates every encounter so everyone is always happy and non-aggresive. This is another example of powergaming, so as you see its not just about what your swinging to do damage.

 

[Dracomeander]

Well, i think that every power gamer wont mind to spend an extra feat to do 1-2 more damage on a weapon.

If we put aside the rules i just think almost physically impossible to handle two weapon of five feets at the same times.

Actually, when I was learning heavy weapon fighting in the SCA, I found it easier to wield the equivalent of two bastard swords than I found it to wield sword and shield. It had everything to do with the balance of the weapons compared to the drag of the shield.

As far as the gaming mechanics are concerned, wielding the two swords can prove to be more beneficial against numbers of mooks at times , but overall the two-hander specialized fighter is going to be the more dangerous opponent vs the stronger foes. The extra off-hand attacks are offset by the greater damage potential from power attack.

 

[MoonZar]

Thanks you for all your query, so far you guys convince me that we should allow him to do it as the PHB say.

 

[Victim]

Well, i think that every power gamer wont mind to spend an extra feat to do 1-2 more damage on a weapon.

If we put aside the rules i just think almost physically impossible to handle two weapon of five feets at the same times.

It's not just a matter of spending one feat to do more damage. There's also the other stuff a character could be doing with that feat. A character might get more benefit from some other feat. Switching to a bastard sword from a longsword increases damage by about 1 point per hit. As long as someone can do better than that, whether via raw bonuses like specialization or through tactical abilities like Cleave, then using bastardswords isn't all that good. And then we can start taking PrCs into the mix; every extra feat you spend on the bastard sword keeps you in the fighter class for two more levels basically.

 

[Wish]

If it offends your sense of "realism" just consider that according to the D&D rules:

Your average person can stand at the door of an empty, well lit 30x30 room and have a 5% chance of not seeing an automobile on the other side of the room.

A cleric were to cast "animate object" on that very same automobile, that same person would have no chance of missing it at any distance under similar circumstances.

If, in combat, I pick up a sword off the ground I am considered to be dropping my defenses, and anybody around me gets to whack me for free. If, in combat, I am standing paralyzed and utterly defenseless, nobody gets to whack me for free. _Unless_ I have the ability to cast a spell without requiring any components, and attempt to do so. At which point they can whack me for doing something that is not in any way noticably different from my previous standing there utterly helpless.

If you are standing paralyzed in a raging magical inferno and die a horrible death, there is only a 5% chance that any of your gear is damaged. If you were to set the identical gear on the ground and walk away before invoking the raging magical inferno, however, virtually all of it would be destroyed.

Sometimes you just have to accept that the rules of the game work in their own context, and not by trying to apply real world logic to them.

 

[Thanee]

I call munshins every body who choice feats just for power and not because this fit the idea they have about their characters.

It's "Munchkin", by the way.

And while that person might think about it as a powerful choice... it really isn't.

TWF with big weapons is not a very effective combat style. Quite the opposite, really.

It could very well just be the style idea, wielding two large blades, which he is looking for.

In general you are right, that feat choices (and any character choices) should be done with the character in mind, but people also want to get some mileage out of their few, precious feats (ok, scrap that "few", when talking about a fighter ). And it's very well possible to get both... powerful choices, that fit the character concept.

I don't see anything inherently wrong with the idea of wielding two bastard swords.
There is a cost to be paid for it, which is not low. Only the fighter class can reasonably do so, that's already a pretty large limitation. That's why you play a fighter, to be better at fighting than an average person.

Just be happy, that he hasn't found the rules for the half-giants or goliaths, yet.

Bye
Thanee

 

[MoonZar]

Just be happy, that he hasn't found the rules for the half-giants or goliaths, yet.

Bye
Thanee

Hello,

Well heheheh i dont want to speak about these races, this really painful to watch...

 

[Evilhalfling]

I played a campaign with a dual wielding bastard sword (teenager).
the -4 penalty to his attacks hurt. the fact that he had to have a 19 dex (greater TWF) hurt more as he couldn't maximize his strength. He tried going in lighter armour and this made him a poor tank. He his 2nd and 3rd itnerations were pitaful. So of 6 attacks he had per round -
12BAB+3str+2weapon,+2GWF,-4TWFpenalty = +15/+10/+5 (d10+9/1d10+5)my meele cleric was more likely to hit - without buffs. Our archer schooled us both.