Murdering the multi-attack-stat class

Kordeth

First Post
Some musings on the topic of amping the paladin up into a more respectable, less-psychotically-MAD defender has led me to a realization: I don't like classes having attacks that rely on multiple ability scores (i.e. paladins attacking with both Str and Con, clerics with Str and Wis, warlocks with Con and Cha). It can't help but promote MAD, and leads inevitably to things like the now-infamous level 9 paladin, who has no options at all (currently; I'm sure divine power will change this) if he's focused on Strength-based powers.

I think it's telling that, out of all the classes released for 4E thus far, only three have multiple attack stats: the cleric, the paladin, and the warlock. Of those three, lots of folks seem to agree that the paladin and the warlock are at or near the bottom tier for their particular roles. Clerics, I think, tend to be okay, but I still prefer the cleaner model of "one primary attack stat, two build-related secondary stats," so I'm going to see what I can do with them, too. We'll start with paladins, though, because that's what I've been thinking about most:
Paladin
The paladin remains a divine defender, but becomes a pure Charisma-primary path. The two paladin builds, avenging paladin and protecting paladin, favor Strength and Wisdom, respectively.

- All paladin attack powers use Charisma for attacks and damage.
- Divine Mettle gives the target a bonus equal to your Wisdom modifier instead of your Charisma modifier.
- Powers with secondary effects based on another ability score are reassigned. I don't feel like doing an itemized list right now, but in general, any offensive power uses Strength for its secondary effects, and any healing or defensive power uses Wisdom.
- Divine Challenge: Choose one of the following options:

Divine Wrath Paladin Feature
You boldly confront a nearby enemy, searing it with divine light if
it ignores your challenge.

At-Will ✦ Divine, Radiant
Minor Action Close
burst 5
Target: One creature in burst
Effect: You mark the target. The target remains marked until it is dead, or until you use this power against another target, or until you make an attack that does not include the target. A creature can be subject to only one mark at a time. A new mark supersedes a mark that was already in place.

While a target is marked, it takes a –2 penalty to attack rolls for any attack that doesn’t include you as a target. Also, it takes radiant damage equal to 5 + your Strength modifier the first time it makes an attack that doesn’t include you as a target before the start of your next turn. The damage increases to 10+ your Strength modifier at 11th level, and to 15 + your Strength modifier at 21st level.

You can use divine challenge once per turn.
Special: Even though this ability is called a challenge, it doesn’t rely on the intelligence or language ability of the target. It’s a magical compulsion that affects the creature’s behavior, regardless of the creature’s nature. You can’t place a divine challenge on a creature that is already affected by your or another character’s divine challenge.

Divine Martyrdom Paladin Feature
You boldly confront a nearby enemy, suffering its fury in your allies' stead.
At-Will ✦ Divine, Radiant
Minor Action Close
burst 5
Target: One creature in burst
Effect: You mark the target. The target remains marked until it is dead, or until you use this power against another target, or until you make an attack that does not include the target. A creature can be subject to only one mark at a time. A new mark supersedes a mark that was already in place.

While a target is marked, it takes a –2 penalty to attack rolls for any attack that doesn’t include you as a target. If that attack hits and the marked target is within 10 squares of you, as an immediate reaction you may choose to suffer all damage from the attack instead of any one creature. Reduce this damage by an amount equal to your Wisdom modifier. At 11th level, reduce the damage by 5 + your Wisdom modifier. At 21st level, reduce the damage by 15 + your Wisdom modifier. The original target of the attack still suffers any other effects of the attack. No power or effect can reduce the damage you take any further.

You can use divine challenge once per turn.
Special: Even though this ability is called a challenge, it doesn’t rely on the intelligence or language ability of the target. It’s a magical compulsion that affects the creature’s behavior, regardless of the creature’s nature. You can’t place a divine challenge on a creature that is already affected by your or another character’s divine challenge.
Cleric
The cleric gets a less-drastic makeover, but becomes a Wisdom-based divine leader with two builds, the battle cleric and the devoted cleric, favoring Strength and Charisma, respectively.

- All cleric powers use Wisdom for attacks and damage.
- Turn Undead uses Charisma instead of Wisdom. (I'd like it if there was a nice counterbalancing power for Strength, but Divine Fortune doesn't really fit.)
- Cleric powers generally already adhere to the theme for secondary abilities; melee-boffing powers use Strength as a secondary ability, laser-cleric type powers use Charisma.
Warlock
Warlocks are already pretty diverse, with most of their build distinctiveness coming from their pact rather than which secondary ability score they favor. Given that, I'm pretty much okay with warlocks being a straight up Charisma primary, Intelligence secondary class. I suppose one could make, say, Star Pact and Dark Pact warlocks use Con for secondary effects, but IMO it's not necessary.

- Warlocks use Charisma for all attacks and damage. (Yes, Virginia, this means tieflings are no longer better feylocks than burnlocks. :))
 

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The Ranger is also a split to-hit score class, with a mix of powers that hit on either Dex or Strength.

Like you, I have considered the idea of consolidating the "V-build" classes (those with 2 different to-hit stats) down to a single to-hit score, with different secondaries. I find it interesting to note that there are no split classes in PH2 - all are "A-build" (one to-hit stat). Does this mean the designers decided that V-builds are suboptimal?

Certainly the A-build classes have more options when it comes to selecting powers. You may be a taclord, with higher int than charisma, but you can still hit effectively with any warlord powers - even those intended for the inspiring build. Your secondary stats just don't synergize as well.

So the question is should the V-build classes have been built with a single to-hit stat across the board? Or does having the option of a cleric that hits on strength rather than wisdom add flexibility to the racial choices and flavor of the class?

Paladins have it especially bad right now. I am hoping that Divine Power does a lot to fix them. If I were to consolidate any of the classes, pallies feel like they need it the most. They are extremely MAD right now. If I were to consolidate them down to an A-build class, I would also have gone with Charisma primary.

But are we losing something when we limit the racial choices (for those players that like to have a +2 racial bonus on their main to-hit stat)? That also begs the question on whether there should be some flexibility in how racial +2 stat bonuses are assigned - but that's another topic.

Thanks for asking the question - this is certainly something I have thought about, and I would be interested in hearing other opinions on the topic.
 

I figure divine power, will introduce more powers and options for the straladin and if they also introduce a new marking ability with str/wisdom for the paladin I will be a happy camper ... It doesn't matter to me whether something is a V class or two A classes as long as enough options are there for both branches of the V.
 

The ranger isn't a problem imo, due to the fact that you will almost always be using drastically different builds that are railroaded into the powers associated with them.

Besides using dex to determine damage and hit for two one handed weapons or using str to determine the same for bows just seems stupid.

Change the idea to "murder the multi-attack-stat build", and Im on board
 

Why would it be bad to use Dex for all ranger powers?

I actually find it odd for Con to no longer aid Warlocks, and would probably rather see it be Con plus either Cha or Int, or Cha plus Con or Int.

In the case of the cleric and paladin Wis + Cha builds, it would probably fit the newer design model if they got a bonus to a defense. For example, if paladins could apply their Wis bonus to Reflex or Clerics apply their Cha to Fortitude.
 

Havent gone too in-depth yet (have too many other things on my DM'ing plate right now) but I think you are definately on the right track. I think every class should follow a "1 stat primary to-hit, secondary stat based on sub build" type of idea so we have a standard across the board and no MADness in the system.

It is a shame that some classes (well, the ones you listed) got singled out for MADness :(
 

Why would it be bad to use Dex for all ranger powers?

I actually find it odd for Con to no longer aid Warlocks, and would probably rather see it be Con plus either Cha or Int, or Cha plus Con or Int.

In the case of the cleric and paladin Wis + Cha builds, it would probably fit the newer design model if they got a bonus to a defense. For example, if paladins could apply their Wis bonus to Reflex or Clerics apply their Cha to Fortitude.
Never liked the way to some classes (and races) stack one defence redundantly. Its one of those annoying design slips...not game ending, but a little frustrating if you are trying to put a character together to an image and it ends up sub-optimal as a result (Str/Con Fighters for instance).

We have already implemented a counter feat for this

Feat : Adaptive Defence
Prereq : Heroic
Description : Pick one defence. The lesser of the two stats which contribute to that feat can be included in the list of stats that contribute to another selected defence. This feat can only be taken once.

So, for instance, our Str/Con fighter can elect to (through this feat) contribute the lower of his Str/Con to another defence, lets say his reflex. So if hiw con was the lower of the two, his reflex calc becomes "Best of Dex/Int/Con".

I know this seems like a feat tax, but I wasnt willing to make a core change for this point. Works (sorta).
 

Feat : Adaptive Defence
Prereq : Heroic
Description : Pick one defence. The lesser of the two stats which contribute to that defense can be included in the list of stats that contribute to another selected defence. This feat can only be taken once.

I do like things which encourage diverse attribute allocation... my ideas are more situational... a change to the combat advantage rule (ie when somebody has combat advantage against you instead of the normal +2 -- the lesser attribute is used in defense) It makes all the secondaries not so useless ... but only situationally.
 

For ref I've been experimenting with a house rule that doesn't have ability scores affecting hit chance at all - everyone gets a base attack of 5 + 1/2 level, +1 at 5, 11, 15, 21, 25 (and expertise doesn't exist). Damage is still based on appropriate ability score, but it makes the MAD classes, race choices, and more varied multiclassing a lot more viable so I'm pretty happy with it so far.

I did it because they wanted to do an all halfling group, and this way they aren't as penalized by doing so.
 

I did it because they wanted to do an all halfling group, and this way they aren't as penalized by doing so.
I like that idea!
If it was planned as a long term game.. I would be inclined to allow different families within the halflings to be defined (for some we could even reskin other races)
For instance say one group are Tallfellow and the related Longleg families...
Tall Fellows might get a bonus to strength and a rebounding spirit or the Long Legs clan get speed (both as reskinned the shifters;))

They don't become fiercer.. but rather get a spring in there step and gleam in their eye that proves you cant keep a good hobbit down.
 
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