D&D (2024) My current assessment…

[Cyber-Dave]

Well, considering the other option needs a dom or some bread... hm.. then again...

Listen, smarty-pants, I was just saying they are worse than every other class, not secondary Jacks of All Trades at every other role.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I mean to say Expertise there, my mistake. Its odd that casters are on par with Rogue's Expertise.

They're ahead, not on-par. Casters cannot fail. Expertise can.

That's still a quality of life change, not a power bump. It makes BI easier to use, not a direct increase of power. QoL changes are not the same as power bumps. And its not like the loss of pre-buffing Inspiration doesn't have its own nerfs that we need to keep in mind.

It's both. It absolutely is a direct increase in power to go to "on fail" from "before the DM says". That's unarguable.

And I don't feel like pre-buffing Inspiration has any meaningful losses, and I say that having played Bards an absolute ton in 5E.

Eh... I feel that people are honestly overrating prepared spells on a bard - far too often, you don't know exactly what to prep at the beginning of an adventure day for exploring that wouldn't be in a standard load out

This doesn't even make sense to me.

Bards have to permanently pick spells. With Tasha's, they can slowly alter them, though if you believe Jeremy Crawford, if they ever change their Magical Secrets, they can only pick from Bard spells, even though Magical Secrets explicitly say otherwise, because of "natural language" (I wish I was kidding).

So you don't have a "standard load out", you have to pick spells with broad usage. As someone who plays Druids and thus does prep spells, you absolutely change your spells some of the time. Not all the time, but enough. It's big.

Its pretty obvious that Jack got pushed to 5 because Expertise is now a lower level, to match Rogue/Ranger; future proofing for any Expert-only items or feats. The features swapped. And Font of Inspiration got pushed to 7 because of the pacing of class features.

I'm aware, and both are bad decisions. Expertise would make more sense at 5th, and pushing up Font is just plain obnoxious.

Song of Rest was pretty good at low levels, ya know, the levels most people play at. And that's not the only nerf that bard healing got. Bards have lost pretty much any out of combat healing ability.

I mean, they've gone from almost none to none? At levels 1-5, I agree that it is a loss, so long as your group used Short Rests a bit (and most do). But above that? It's kind of meaningless.

 

[Mephista]

Listen, smarty-pants, I was just saying they are worse than every other class, not secondary Jacks of All Trades at every other role.

Wait, so we don't want to eat the Rouge subs? I'm confused now.

 

[Neonchameleon]

The disparity between martial and magical classes is growing. The best of the martial builds got kneecapped, but there is no evidence of that lost damage potential being regained elsewhere.

Weapon abilities (which we haven't seen yet) and more feats for the martial characters. The best of the martial builds got nerfed - but the benchmark got raised and it got easier to reach that benchmark. One of the things they are trying to do is narrow the gap between characters in the hands of a novice and those in the hands of an expert.

And I can see a number of new martial builds such as a fighter with Charger, Shield Expert, and Sentinel at level 8 that would be vastly both stronger and more fun than a pre-existing sword & board fighter.

But magic does not need a buff, agreed.

 

[Yaarel]

Invisibility got buffed to the point that it’s virtually stealth without a skill check. That steps on the toes of the rogue.

The Invisibility spell can be as simple as allowing a Stealth ability check to Hide while in plain sight.

Thus, whether a creature is Hidden by magic or mundane means, the same benefit of being Unseeable applies to both.

This actually simplifies the Hide rules, and seems more appropriate for a low slot spell.

In fact, relatively speaking, the rogue seems to have gained power compared to other materials, but only because their most powerful builds were kneecapped, while being nerfed compared to those who could truly steal their spotlight: utility casters. Stealth has been nerfed significantly due to relative context. Also, with more classes gaining expertise, the rogue has even less of a place to shine mechanically.

One has a lot of potential, but as of right now, the devil is in the details… and these details will sink the edition. As of right now, One isn’t so badly balanced as to be a repeat of 3e, but it’s badly balanced enough for me to avoid updating if the final product doesn’t change significantly during playtesting. It undoes too much of what 5e did to achieve parity between martial and magical classes under its hood.

I am not paying too much attention to the Rogue. I appreciate you are.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Listen, smarty-pants, I was just saying they are worse than every other class, not secondary Jacks of All Trades at every other role.

Considering that they are still as good as they were before for 90% of the player base, or even better, probably they are on the right track.
Now we need to considerably voice our opinions, that they need more buffs compared to spellcasters (like every other non-caster), so that you don't have to resort to stupid loopholes and we have a winner.

The rogue's strength has always been that they work well without any rest. Their reaction is best spend for uncanny dodge and their bonus action for cunning action.
Using a bonus action or a reaction regularly for the attack (possibly getting a second sneak attack) or combining sneak attack with bladesinger cantrips was just a way to catch up in damage against casters or in a very optimized party.

I'd prefer to just buff the rogue in the right places.
A good start would be to have sneak attack scale better. At least for non magic tricksters. A thief can easily just get an ability to double their sneak attack dice prof bonus times per long rest or so. Would be a nice ability, especially on a crit.

 

[Mephista]

I want to see rogue gear be made viable long term. Poison, caltrops and ball bearings, smoke bombs, alchemist fire/acid, disguises and forgery. If we get those working on the same level as magic... Thief and assassin can match arcane trickster archetype in terms of utility and in combat damage...

 

[Gorck]

I'd prefer to just buff the rogue in the right places.
A good start would be to have sneak attack scale better. At least for non magic tricksters. A thief can easily just get an ability to double their sneak attack dice prof bonus times per long rest or so. Would be a nice ability, especially on a crit.

How about just giving them Extra Attack at 5th level, maybe even allowing them to use Sneak Attack on that 2nd attack as well (but not twice on the same attack if they are dual wielding).

 

[Horwath]

How about just giving them Extra Attack at 5th level, maybe even allowing them to use Sneak Attack on that 2nd attack as well (but not twice on the same attack if they are dual wielding).

allowing sneak attack on all attacks, but only one sneak attack per target per round.

It would not affect single target DPS, but it would give the rogue some "AoE" ability.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

How about just giving them Extra Attack at 5th level, maybe even allowing them to use Sneak Attack on that 2nd attack as well (but not twice on the same attack if they are dual wielding).

Possibly. But I'd rather add that as subclass feature (level 6).