My Grind Fix: Half hp, 2/3 Xp

[BartD]

Actually, the proposed fix is 1/2 hp and 2/3 xp. This is a small but significant difference. The number of enemies increases by 50% while hit points are halved, reducing the total number of hps in the fight to 3/4 normal. Additionally, those hps are divided over several critters. In general, it is easier to lightly damage two enemies than to seriously damage one.

Thanks for correcting me

But, to play the devil's advocate, doesn't a change like this shift the importance of character roles? When you can drop opponents quicker, defending and leading are less useful comparen to striking, no? And if the party takes advantage of this and replaces someone with a third striker, won't combats become even more swingy?

 

[Neubert]

However, you could also argue that defenders and controllers are more important, due to the added number of opponents. And leaders will be valued for their healing ability, as more damage will be dished out (in the beginning of the fight anyway).

 

[Starfox]

With a bit more experience, your concerns about roles are merited. Not so much about Controllers becoming more effective (I find them pretty meh originally), but in Defenders being less able to control the ravening hordes. Especially non-fighter defenders. Specifically, our swordmage feels pretty useless. I try and tell the players that his area damage has great effect, but really the Aegis of Assault is pretty useless, as confirmed elsewhere.

 

[Starfox]

I did another experiment today. I knew the map I was going to run was real tight, so I decided to cut down on the number of critters by using the original hp rules.

It worked, but fights ended up less exiting and taking about 50% longer. The most exiting fight was the one where I added 50% more critters and kept the full hp - but that one ended up pretty grindy. The players who enjoy big fights were happy about it, but they are in a minority. [To my players: Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's how I read the situation]

Overall, I find my original idea still holds and will go back to it next session.

 

[Tuft]

[To my players: Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's how I read the situation]

Anybody else but me writing here?

I take it you refer to the first encounter of the evening, the ogrekin(?) with his trained lots-of-hitpoints rats? (Those must have been made out of neutronium, or something...)

Did not really pay that much attention to it, because it wasn't until after it that I got do do some real fun non-combat stuff to cheer me up, and I had settled in expecting to have to wait out a full evening of grindy stuff, as implied by the previous gaming session... (sorry!!)

There were never any urgency in the fight; I don't think I even used my Majestic Words until very late in the fight, when it was a foregone conclusion. The ogrekin never managed to capitalize on his hook pulls, and the challenge in the encounter was mostly maneuvering to maximize the number of rats in close blasts / close bursts in the tight space available, while still catching the ogrekin somehow in the area.

Taking out the "small fry" first, even as tough and hard-chewed as these rats, or Mommie's undead in the previous session, seems to be a very good tactic, but it resolves the encounters very early. Then you end up with something very akin to a City of Heroes archvillain fight. Compare with Statesman's Taskforce - once you take out the towers, the fight against Lord Recluse himself isn't very interesting, unless you go for the badge. (And with the badge, it isn't excitement, it's frustrating nervousness, but that is digressing...)

The third encounter, repeatedly throwing the three drunk ogrekin into the pond using various slide maneuvers was much more fun, but in a kind of slapstick Keystone Cops manner, and by then I had also been cheered up by the second encounter, which we managed to turn into a non-combat one...

 

[Zinovia]

Some other ideas that seem to work as well: Give the monsters a bonus to-hit.
[snip] it actually turns out to be a simpler version of essentially the same solution as reducing monster hit points and XP, except it also generally reduces their defenses as well a bit. Why is this? Because you will now use somewhat lower level monsters to challenge the party.

I like this idea for its simplicity. Although our group has high damage output, fights do tend to take awhile. Some of that is that we have the slowest gaming group ever , but it would help if the PC's missed a bit less, while the monsters were still a credible threat. I may try this out and see how it works. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[the Jester]

The problem with just lowering monster level is that their damage goes down even further, and I find that a lot of monsters are pretty non-threatening due to low damage as it is. Yeah, they hit all the time, but it takes 8 rounds to bloody the fighter.

 

[Neubert]

I haven't looked at the damage levels, but wouldn't using lower level monsters also mean you could add more monsters to an encounter (which I believe was the idea?). Then they might do less damage individually, but there would be more hits.
Also, the variations/spikes in damage would be smaller and the "damage per round" be more predictable the more monsters you have.

 

[Starfox]

Experience suggests that lower levels => more monsters => more total hp in fight => even more grindy.

 

[Neubert]

And I guess that makes the outcome of the combat predictable for the players even sooner. There might be more monsters, but they do less damage each, so once a few is out of the way, it is just a matter of "mopping up the rest"..
I guess the best solution is in fact to make them more "glass cannon"-like, as MM2 seems to be doing.