D&D 5E My happiness or yours.

[Jester David]

We're not "Pro-DoaM", we're Pro-Choice.

And having it as an optional rules modules is still a choice.

I think you're placing an inflated level of importance on the mechanic. It is not inevitable that the use of this would become widespread.

Designers tend to reuse mechanics. If something has been done in another class and is balanced, it makes for an easy addition. And designers like to fill gaps, such as seeing DoaM missing from classes such as barbarian, monk, rogue, etc.

There's another way to avoid flame wars. Don't start them over mechanics you don't like.

So… your advice regarding the game in development that’s meant to unite the community is… nobody complain and just accept things you hate?
That sounds like an excellent way of producing a game that unites the community… against it.

 

[Jester David]

Let's say it shows up as a magic item property. What then?

I get sad and 5e moves down that spectrum of being a game I really, really want to buy and run it being a game I need work at to run.
I have a lot of other RPGs on the shelf at the moment waiting for an opportunity to be played. And I'm going to GenCon this year and I really cannot afford it, so any money I can save is a bonus.
My table is already not sold on 5e, enjoying the customization of Pathfinder.

I don't think these "flame wars" are worthy of consideration, except as a shining example of how damaged and dysfunctional the D&D community is, that something so piddling and minor is suddenly a hill worth dying on. I think it's become a symbol, now, and the mechanic itself is just a proxy for the gaming community's issues.

It’s as “piddling” as any pet peeve.


Damage on a Miss actually has some deeper tension if you think about it. Because it’s a mechanic people are trying to take away from martials but keep in spells in brings in all the Quadratic Wizards vs Linear Fighter feelings, and the whole “fighters can’t have anything nice” crowd.
As DoaM was featured heavily in 4e, it also includes some of the edition wars tension. Many 4e fans are clinging to it as a symbol of 4e gameplay
Because some of the problems people have with DoaM are descriptive in nature (a “miss” still being a “hit”) it involves the gamist versus simulationist versus narrativist conflict.
DoaM also ties into the nature of hitpoints, with hitpoints as meat or as skill or energy, or what ratio of each.


I’ve described it as “the Captain Power of Flame Wars”. Although "the Devastator of Flame Wars" also works, if you're a Transformers fan.


But it certainly has become a great example of how damaged the D&D community is, and WotC’s apathy to their fans. If Mearls and the rest would address the topic, come onto the forums or do a blog post addressing the subject, it would help. We’d know their answer and know they at least listened to us before making a decision. They could so surveys on the website. Instead, we get casual tweets and jokes.
This is sadly typical. WotC just ignores the fans and lets the community burn. They have no interest in engaging with us except on a very limited basis on their terms.They talk at us and not with us.

 

[Obryn]

It’s as “piddling” as any pet peeve.


Damage on a Miss actually has some deeper tension if you think about it. Because it’s a mechanic people are trying to take away from martials but keep in spells in brings in all the Quadratic Wizards vs Linear Fighter feelings, and the whole “fighters can’t have anything nice” crowd.
As DoaM was featured heavily in 4e, it also includes some of the edition wars tension. Many 4e fans are clinging to it as a symbol of 4e gameplay
Because some of the problems people have with DoaM are descriptive in nature (a “miss” still being a “hit”) it involves the gamist versus simulationist versus narrativist conflict.
DoaM also ties into the nature of hitpoints, with hitpoints as meat or as skill or energy, or what ratio of each.


I’ve described it as “the Captain Power of Flame Wars”. Although "the Devastator of Flame Wars" also works, if you're a Transformers fan.

This needs a thread all its own. It'll be up soon.

But it certainly has become a great example of how damaged the D&D community is, and WotC’s apathy to their fans. If Mearls and the rest would address the topic, come onto the forums or do a blog post addressing the subject, it would help. We’d know their answer and know they at least listened to us before making a decision. They could so surveys on the website. Instead, we get casual tweets and jokes.
This is sadly typical. WotC just ignores the fans and lets the community burn. They have no interest in engaging with us except on a very limited basis on their terms.They talk at us and not with us.

I think that's unfair towards WotC. I don't think they've figured it out yet - judging from a few posts, some alternate options are being considered in closed playtesting. Given that, I can't see how more statements from them could possibly have a calming effect. They've already said outright it "tested well" and that should have been that, right? Yet here we still are.

Official statements from WotC, given the toxic environment, can't possibly calm anything down at this stage, up until the point where it's finalized internally. And jokes are about what this "debate" merits right now, frankly.

 

[pemerton]

that trainwreck alignment thread I'm staying out of.

But like the mesmerising gaze of a vampire, it draws you in . . .

You know you want to!

 

[Obryn]

But like the mesmerising gaze of a vampire, it draws you in . . .

You know you want to!

Nuh-uh. Not gonna do it.

 

[Manbearcat]

Originally Posted by Obryn
that trainwreck alignment thread I'm staying out of.

But like the mesmerising gaze of a vampire, it draws you in . . .

You know you want to!

Nuh-uh. Not gonna do it.

Oh god is it ever a trainwreck. Every moment I can't avert my eyes, every foolish keystroke I make just ensures my descent into madness. Just terrible.

 

[Obryn]

Oh god is it ever a trainwreck. Every moment I can't avert my eyes, every foolish keystroke I make just ensures my descent into madness. Just terrible.

I haven't even opened it, I'm happy to say. Saw it the day it popped up, ignored it ever since. Haven't read a single post from it. I think I'm a better person for it. Better than you and [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION], you storygaming swine, anyway.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

So… your advice regarding the game in development that’s meant to unite the community is… nobody complain and just accept things you hate?

Not even close. Complaints are flying out of both sides of this discussion, but there's no reason to turn this into a flame war.

And a good way to avoid veering into flamewar territory is to let go of the hate. It helps one's case much more when discussing a dislike and the reasoning behind that dislike, which I believe you've done. But turning that dislike to literal hate makes one sound like they're wearing a tinfoil hat so WotC won't be able to mindscan them for the location of their dog so they can go kick it. One loses credibility when they continuosly froth over something as minor in the grand scheme as a game mechanic.

 

[Jester David]

They've already said outright it "tested well" and that should have been that, right? Yet here we still are.

They said GWF tested well, which just means people didn't hate the weapon styles. Or that the majority didn't have a strong feeling. This is a discussion between minorities in the community. Really, most big problematic discussions about alignment or DoaM or spellcasting fighters likely only matters to two minorities of the player base while the majority just wants to play.

 

[Emerikol]

They said GWF tested well, which just means people didn't hate the weapon styles. Or that the majority didn't have a strong feeling. This is a discussion between minorities in the community. Really, most big problematic discussions about alignment or DoaM or spellcasting fighters likely only matters to two minorities of the player base while the majority just wants to play.

I don't agree that the don't care side is a lot bigger than the other two but it's in the same neighborhood. You have 3 sides with each being about equal.

The problem is that the passionate decide the game. If you don't care you don't care. So if I insist on game X instead of game Y because I do care then game X is getting bought. It is why I believe WOTC should worry more about the passionate minority. That passionate minority are the people DMing a lot of their games.