D&D 5E My New Players Have Quit 5th Edition

[ExploderWizard]

Maybe they believe that fantasy vietnam is the best way to learn D&D. Maybe you just have a preference for a style of game and that results in a bias in your assumptions about D&D players in general.

There are lots of possible reasons the game keeps refusing to go your way in the design. They could be wrong in their assessment of the playerbase and newbie needs. They could be spot on and your out of touch.

My personal gut bias is that players are adults and character death is not the end of the world.

From my own experience, character death wasn't a big deal when I was kid either generally. There was resentment if the player thought the DM was trying to hose him on purpose (which happens with kids) or if a character got betrayed and killed by another player's character (which also happens with kids). Overall though, death which happened while normally playing the game was accepted as a consequence of the events of play being a GAME.

Not every loss was a death or TPK but both were quite common. Adventures are dangerous. Grab the dice and roll up a new character or play a henchman/npc until you can do so. The important thing was to keep the PLAYER involved in the game. Characters are imaginary and disposable. People matter.

Yes, I would have personally fudged the damage to leave the PC with 1 hit point.

Or just have all the players play orc PCs. They would all get a save to keep 1 hit point.

Bold added, in favorable conditions the bugbear should be able to outright kill a character, they are the scary sneaky kind of goblins, for a first level party, if he gets the drop on you it's probably gona hurt.

I love monsters like that, they bring the exploration pillar and the combat pillar together like no other.

Warder

Yes indeed. Knowing that something could pop out any minute and kill you instantly was what made the exploration game so tense and exciting. Just walking around and exploring as a 1st level character in B/X you felt like you were in that scene from Big Trouble in Little China when a monster sprang out of a hole in the wall and just ate a member of the expedition in one gulp.

No assumption based on what the rules should or should not do is needed as the Development after Lost Mine of Phanladin's Goblin Ambush (Pg. 7) encounter specifically says:

''In the unlikely event that the goblins defeat the adventurers, they leave them unconscious, loot them and the wagon, and head back to Cragmaw Hideout. The characters can continue on to Phandalin, buy new gear at Barthen's provision, return to the ambush site and find the goblin trail.''

Its a Go Directly to Jail, Do Not Pass GO, Do Not Collect 200$ sorta thing, No death saving throw needed, the scenario propose having the adventurers not die if they took a rough beat, just knocked unconscious so they can continue after....

I read that and giggled. What are the PCs supposed to buy new equipment WITH?

If you are saying "I personally think that not being able to be killed in one blow is what is best for new players" then fine. If you are saying though that other players including new players all agree with you then I take exception. That was my point.

There is no evidence that I've seen that indicates new players have any more issue with dying than old players do. Some don't mind and some do. It could just as easily be presented that a new player might think D&D is too easy or is not suspenseful. People quit D&D after a session or two all the time. I don't think most of them are retainable. I do think roleplaying is not for everyone. Most of the time, I believe those it is good for will stick with it even if their character dies in one blow.

And that is just my opinion.

Anyone approaching the experience as a game which can include both victory and defeat shouldn't have a huge problem with it no matter their age.

 

[Pickles JG]

Yes indeed. Knowing that something could pop out any minute and kill you instantly was what made the exploration game so tense and exciting. Just walking around and exploring as a 1st level character in B/X you felt like you were in that scene from Big Trouble in Little China when a monster sprang out of a hole in the wall and just ate a member of the expedition in one gulp.

Randomly getting killed by a monster popping out of hiding is about as tense & exciting as snakes &
ladders. It can be fun occasionally but mostly I would like more input into my survival chances.

The whole fantasy Vietnam thing seems to fit oddly in this edition. It is very hostile to "story" which is touted as being the main emphasis. The story is very much horror movie when you are just wondering which of the protagonists will be the one to make it out alive. There seems little point getting invested in characters or worrying overmuch about those RP characteristics that many people seem to think are the best things since sliced bread. OTOH you are only expected to play at level 1 & 2 for a session each unlike 1e when first level could be with you for many many sessions so I guess you just have to remain lucky for a short while.

Resurrection magic is super easy to come by now so it looks like the style of game where death is cheap but by level 5 pretty much temporary. This is something I always found unsatisfying - I would rather have less frequent deaths but more meaningful ones, especially in terms of what all that resurrection means for the wider world. It also seems to make clerics mandatory again which was never fun.

4e definitely made characters too robust but there is a lot of space between 4e & this or 1e, probably filled by the old standby of starting at 3rd level when the game becomes more interesting & less arbitrary. I am happy with this fix myself starting at level 3 will give you that more robust start without the need for variant rules. Not that I don't think I can live with 2 levels of slot machine D&D.

 

[BryonD]

Randomly getting killed by a monster popping out of hiding is about as tense & exciting as snakes &
ladders. It can be fun occasionally but mostly I would like more input into my survival chances.

I agree with this statement. But, regardless of system, if it is happening like this, you have DM issue. I would agree that L1 can make it a bit more challenging and maybe the DM needs more slack, but it is still a DM issue.

That isn't to say that there should never be the capacity for a surprise kill. But either the players should have control over how and when they get into that situation. Giving them a reason to risk great danger and the make their own choice and live with the consequences can be great fun, for example. Setting the table for the players to have the great joy of successful revenge against an unfair wrong also requires the existence of an unfair wrong. There are a lot of ways to make great fun from this type of situation. Which sin't to say it can't also suck. It very easily can, and without some skill in how it is managed the default state is "suck".

 

[ExploderWizard]

Randomly getting killed by a monster popping out of hiding is about as tense & exciting as snakes &
ladders. It can be fun occasionally but mostly I would like more input into my survival chances.

The whole fantasy Vietnam thing seems to fit oddly in this edition. It is very hostile to "story" which is touted as being the main emphasis. The story is very much horror movie when you are just wondering which of the protagonists will be the one to make it out alive. There seems little point getting invested in characters or worrying overmuch about those RP characteristics that many people seem to think are the best things since sliced bread. OTOH you are only expected to play at level 1 & 2 for a session each unlike 1e when first level could be with you for many many sessions so I guess you just have to remain lucky for a short while.

If story is more important for your needs then there is nothing stopping you from starting play at level 3. The characters are a bit more robust starting out.

Levels 1 &2 are there for those who like the deadliness and danger. So play through those levels if you find them exciting and skip them if you don't. Everyone gets what they want.

 

[Emerikol]

Randomly getting killed by a monster popping out of hiding is about as tense & exciting as snakes & ladders. It can be fun occasionally but mostly I would like more input into my survival chances.

I'd agree but what you describe doesn't relate to any version of D&D I've known. My players are very careful I guess.

The whole fantasy Vietnam thing seems to fit oddly in this edition. It is very hostile to "story" which is touted as being the main emphasis.

That is a misconception you have. It is the very heavy weight complex rules that are hostile to "story" and it is the fast moving light play that is conducive to story. Fantasy Vietnam has nothing to do with it. All my games have had great "story".

 

[ren1999]

The Surprise Round is just unrealistic and frustrating. It either hurts the party or it makes the monsters in my encounter too easy to eliminate.

I will just make the party and monsters roll for initiative order and skip the surprise round. Not everyone is surprised during an ambush.

I will keep trying to promote 5E but I'm going to be using the Variant Rules whatever they are. And if not, I'll make a House Rule. No surprise round.

 

[ren1999]

As to our Dungeon Mastering styles, on the basis of what some of you said, you pair off monsters with party characters 1 on 1. I consider the wisdom of any monster leader. If the wisdom score is high enough, the monsters will try clever tactics such as ganging up on the weakest looking character. If the monster leader isn't so wise, I usually just send the monsters to the nearest party character and then pair them off in an offensive line. Many times this will lead to a character kill. That is why I want to increase all their hit points. Most players don't do stupid and clumsy things. They read on the Internet how to explore carefully and read to me from their notes what they do.

 

[SkidAce]

The Surprise Round is just unrealistic and frustrating. It either hurts the party or it makes the monsters in my encounter too easy to eliminate.

I will just make the party and monsters roll for initiative order and skip the surprise round. Not everyone is surprised during an ambush.

I will keep trying to promote 5E but I'm going to be using the Variant Rules whatever they are. And if not, I'll make a House Rule. No surprise round.

I like the way ambush works. It really makes that much of a difference in RL.

Miiiight be a bit much for a game, but we are cool with it.

 

[SkidAce]

They read on the Internet how to explore carefully and read to me from their notes what they do.

Fascinating...does this enhance play or "success" more?

 

[Giltonio_Santos]

The Surprise Round is just unrealistic and frustrating. It either hurts the party or it makes the monsters in my encounter too easy to eliminate.

You probably support "combat as sport". As a fan of "combat as war", I love the surprise round. It's deadly as an ambush should be, for both sides.