Abraxas said:And in this case what makes you believe he was in a lawless land?
Nothing. I was addressing a statement that paladins have a duty to bring law to lawless lands. I could have let myself into an argument over whether we have any reason to believe that the land in question is lawless, but I wanted to make another point: that this was not a Lawful way to deal with a malefactor in either a Lawless or a lawless land.
If this was not a lawless land, then a Lawful character would have tended to leave judgement and punishment to the law.
So either way, whether the land was lawful or lawless, Vindicator's character in my opinion in this incident acted according to Chaotic norms. A single Chaotic act under considerable stress is no big deal, hence my votes that the character remain a paladin. It would only be if this was an example of a consistent unlawful tendency that I would consider an alignment change that threatened class abilities.
The reason that I make this point so forcefully is that a lot of posters insist that Vindicator's character did nothing whatsoever wrong. That may be true by a Chaotic Good or even Neutral Good standard, or by the laws of Texas. But I don't believe that those are the appropriate standards.
So its OK to kill if King and Country says kill - the I was just following orders defence.
Actually, I would be applying a 'Just War' defence, not a 'Just Following Orders' defence. And I would still judge the Lawful character's alignment according to a Lawful standard. It is just that the principles of Lawfulness that demand certain procedures in judging a neighbour and delivering justice to a community demand different procedures when killing an enemy of that community in open war.
In the Vindicator's scenario - I think it was reasonable to think that lethal force was the most effective means of stopping the perp. That is probably where we disagree most - but thats easy to live with.
'Most effective' != 'necessary' or 'appropriate'
Don't get a job as a cop or security guard. And don't try house-training a puppy
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