My problem with the "standard" level of magic

[Spell]

I recently saw a thread about low magic and its appeal that made me think.
I basically quit dming D&D because of my problem with high magic. I decided to talk about it here, so that someone might find a solution.

I'll start with a quote, from my DMG: "... magic is prevalent enough in the world that it will be always be taken into account by smart individuals."
The book talks about hiring magic-users to detect invisible thief in the market, continual flame spells to provide for lights, town militia with a couple of wizards to provide defence from magic, and so on.

I already have a couple of problems with this.
For example, I think that the concept of "town milita" was invented in London, when they created the so called "bobbies" (the policemen), in order to save the army for war and large scale disorders. That was when... late 1700s?
From what I know (and I don't think I'm completely wrong) there was no such thing as a "town militia" in medieval times. As a matter of fact, medival cities and lives were so different from our own that if we could time travel, we would find ourselves in a profoundly different world, regulated by different ideas and forces.

But that's alright. Nobody ever told that D&D was supposed to recreate history. The game world is a medieval-looking representation of the contemporary world... so what?

The problem, for me, is that that's just the tip of the iceberg.
Think about it.

A first level wizard (or sorcerer, or anybody with access to the trickery domain), could use a change self spell to change his appearance, go shopping, leaving a long list of debts behind, ending the spell, and living happily even after.
Sure, this is oversemplification, but it can be done, with some skill and preparation.

Castles. I wonder why somebody should bother building such a structure when you have mages throwing fireballs around, teleporting, calling lightinings, and so on.
Sure, you could pay somebody to protect your castle. You might even pay a fortune to create built-in magical defences... but is the game worth the candle?

I'm not going into the raise dead issue, and it's legal implications... Mr. Joe prince should be happy when his father returns from death for the third or fourth time...

And you also have no famines, and no plagues of mundane nature, unless you rule out the presence of good clerics and gods.

This is just what I could think of taking a glance at the PHB. I wonder how many problems you could cause studying the problem with more attention, or with access to other sourcebooks.

Some of you will smile and say that I'm oversimplifying things, that there are ways to prevent these things from happening... but I feel that this is back-thinking.
I think that most adventures, and game worlds are not built with the presence of magic in mind. Magic is added as an afterthought.
Instead of thinking what the world and the society could be like if magic would really exist, they just present a watered-down version of our reality, dressed like a medieval world, giving a couple of shortcuts to avoid problems with wild magic-users.

Now, is this my paranoia? Is there a real answer to run high- (or even normal-) magic campaigns without ignoring a lot of non-sense and weird sitations?
Moreover, has this problem of mine ever being discussed in _any_ RPG book (I'm not talking about just d20 books)?

What do you think?

 

[pogre]

I used to struggle with this issue, and many here will suggest "counters" to some of the problems you discuss. However, as you say it is the tip of the iceberg. The solution for me was to treat the PCs as very rare individuals who are fated by the gods to greatness. Their destinies allow them to gain experience and become great in a short amount of time. If you think of it as kind of medieval supers it works - at least in my mind. Obviously, it involves rejecting the DMG's suggested model.

The truth is it did not change my base D&D game one bit, but I felt more comfortable with the rules and having flying, hasted, invisible characters fighting teleporting demons

 

[hong]

The problem, for me, is that that's just the tip of the iceberg.
Think about it.

That's your problem right there.

What do you think?

I think you should stop thinking.

 

[Numion]

I think that the PHB and DMG give rules for adventuring in a 4 person adventuring group in pseudo-medieval landscape. Nothing more, nothing less.

Constructing a whole society from those rules would be as sensible as modelling the human society from a human biology textbook.

 

[pogre]

I think you should stop thinking.

LOL - In a very real sense this is a wise answer - not just a wisea** remark. However, I understand Spell's dilemma. I had to hash out some of those "issues" in my own mind.

One further solution would be to embrace the magic and high level D&D as ENWorld member SHARK did. His campaigns had huge armies where regular soldiers were 6th level. He was supposed to come out with a source book, but to my knowledge never did. Anybody know what happened to our long-posting marine?

Some Shark goodness for you:
Shark to be published
THE SHARK ORC
THE SHARK OGRE
THE SHARK HOBGOBLIN

and here's his website:
The Shark Empire

 

[Whisper72]

Well... I think pogre's solution is the easiest to implement. It is simple and elegant, and in one stroke makes 'sense' of the world. Naturally, with magic wielding (N)PC's being a rarity, the same should be done with magical beasts / aberrations etc. It should NOT be a common thing to wander through your average wilderniss and suddenly stumble upon a couple of displacer beasts conversing with a bunch of demons or somesuch. They should be either rare / unique monsters, or the result of summonings by the equally rare 'mad mages'(tm). In such a world the majority of encounters will be with 'regular' NPC's, goblinoids and their ilk etc. A dragon sighting would be a major event throughout an entire kingdom, calling upon 'the most powerful knights of the kingdom' to rescue the nation...

I myself run my world in this way.

The only remaining issue is that of player abuse. If the PC's are at level 14 (or whatever) the most powerful spellcasters in the country, what is to stop them from bossing around the king? Well... common sense for one. You cannot be on your guard all the time, and eventually someone will stick a poisoned knife in you. Secondly, somewhere in the world there will be someone greater, and s/he / they will come looking for you.

As a last resort, the Gods may not be amused by once good characters turning to evil ways. Any clerics/druids will lose their spells, and you could impose 1st edition rules where a change of alignment caused you to lose a level.

So.... problem solved...

 

[Spell]

That's your problem right there.



I think you should stop thinking.

That's easily said, but it's difficult to do.
I should have never raised the problem to begin with. Now that I have the problem, I won't make it go away simply by buring my head in the sand.

The part that I like most in a role playing is creating believable situations, societies and worlds. Ignoring this kind of hole would be like ignoring the thing that I like most in the game. Why should I game for, then? To kill dragons by rolling some dices? No offence, but I have better things to do to waste my time!

I could simply play another game... like I'm doing now. But I'm about to move to another city in another nation... and there are way more D&D players than GURPS players, no matter where you go. (and, by the way, I'm not playing fantasy, but a mystery campaign in a modern day setting... I miss fantasy!)

 

[Spell]

Well... I think pogre's solution is the easiest to implement. It is simple and elegant, and in one stroke makes 'sense' of the world.
[...]
I myself run my world in this way.

And it works?

What rules changes have you made? What assumptions found in the core books have been trashed out or ignored (I assume, for example, that there is no such thing as a magic item market in you campaign world)?
You can send me a private message, if you feel that this is off-topic.

I've seen the way Midnight handles magic, and I like it (even if I never tried it). But I would like to take a softer approach, if at all possible.
I want to offer something as close to "standard" D&D as possible, if such thing even existed. Imposing something like such a low magic setting without knowing the group's tastes could displease the players. And I hate to have unhappy players!

The only remaining issue is that of player abuse.

Oh, that's not a problem, for me. If I manage to keep the rest of the world from abusing magic and its powers, I can do what I want with my players...

 

[Darklone]

First level wizard would be well advised to learn the Mount spell as well and sell the thing in different disguises.

 

[Whisper72]

To respond to Spell's questions:

Well.. I am still new to 3.x, and my experience so far is with a 1e/2e combo (I used the DMG and all the other DM-books (UA, the survival guides, monster manuals etc.) from 1st edition, the players used the 2nd edition PHB), no Complete whatever books, no players options / DM options and all that jazz.

Still, the same issues played there as well naturally.

As to actual _rules_, I make few real changes, simply do not make use of some guidelines, such as supposed character wealth per level and the standard / random treasure generation. I decide what kind of treasure is logical to find under which circumstances. To add randomness, I sometimes roll on the random tables to garner ideas, but I will maybe roll ten times, and then choose the one I think is best suited for example.

As to magic shoppes, nope, do not exist. To buy or sell specific magic, you need to find special dealers, go to some Wizarding Academy or somesuch. On the other hand, any weapon shop may have a few magical items among its inventory, because they were sold by others, or because the smit made them.

I have a peculiar way of 'categorizing' magical items:
- scrolls are rarely found / used. IMC the scrolls themselves are not magic in the sense that the paper will rot away over time. With the low saves when hit by fireballs/traps etc., and possibilities for water damage mean that PC's rarely bother with them, and few treasure troves have them. Since I rule that a wizard can only gain new spells by paying for them at a wizarding academy (verry expensive..) or by transcribing from a scroll (which 'consumes' the scroll), the only way scrolls are used is to scribe new scrolls or try to trade for other spells with other wizards...
- potions and similar things are alchemical rather then real magic. Alchemists and temples and wizard academies brew them for some extra dough. Most simpler potions are thus not that hard to come by. Some are by the nature of their ingredients almost impossible to find (f.r. ex dragon control, you need the ingredient of a dragon's brain of an age category at least one higher then the one you try to control. Not too easy to come by.)
- magical weapons and armor are 'imbued' to strengthen the material. Mithral and adamantite are naturally imbued materials, and thus have a 'natural' bonus to to hit and damage. Thus, unless they have additional powers, are not regarded as magical items per se. Think master work and exceptional masterwork like qualities. This means that in my own games, the 'master work' stuff does not appear, as that is basically a +1 item...
- wands, rods and staves and some wondrous items using charges, depending upon their strength, are simply a way of storing spell energy. Most spellcasters simply need to take the time to craft the receptor, store the energy and 'close' the wand. Not a very difficult process in and of itself, but I rule there is possibility of failure when trying to 'close' the wand/item. Failure means all the spell energy is released then and there. Most PC's dare not take that risk, no matter how small it is...
- then there are the truly wondrous maical items, these are rare to the extreme. They need to be made at great cost in terms of time and money by mages who have better things to do then produce to sell. Thus, they are made by people to keep themselves, and are only found in treasure hordes and sometimes, depending upon the type and usefulness, a select few can be gotten for trade or sale at wizarding academies.

Also, characters do not produce magical items. Takes way too much time (at least it did under 1e rules), and takes away too much from adventuring, which is actually more productive in garnering magic then producing stuff yourself, and as descibed above, is sometimes too hazardous.

The world is not low magic per se. I put no limits on the power PC's can achieve, and most officers in armies may carry imbued/strengthened weapons/armor. The main thing is that the wondrous items are rare. You'll not find many bags of holding, carpets of flying, amulets of whatever. Most 'buff items' are rare as well. A ring of protection is a rare find.

These are the main changes I make, but as you can see, they are more in the way I approach things then in real _rules_...