My problem with the "standard" level of magic

[Whisper72]

First level wizard would be well advised to learn the Mount spell as well and sell the thing in different disguises.

Yeah... but with the Law having access to divination spells, they'll quickly trace the culprit, and with the use of some detect lie / true seeing magic, the game is over real soon...

A truly high-magic world is possible, but you have to consider that all sides have access to all manner of stuff to counter most criminal abuse of magic.

This does not do away with issues such as 'why to build a castle', semi underground fortresses (think Eben Emael of 1st and 2nd world war 'fame' in Belgium and the Maginot Line in France) would be more logical then high walls and towers...

 

[Spell]

You know what, Whisper? I like your approach. You're simply using the third edition rules and the 1st/2nd edition feel and reasoning.
I will give it a try, as soon as I find a new group of players.
Keep those suggestion coming, though!

 

[reanjr]

One way

A couple of ideas to throw around.

- PCs are special. They (and some special NPCs) are the only ones who gain those kinds of powers in general. Hedge wizardry may or may not be common.

- Prestige class for solving magical crimes is almost a necessity. Players don't even have to know about it, but the class should have divinations and magic suppressing abilities (or spells) at their disposal. This way, the uber-powerful PC wizard can't commit crimes with the use of Alter Self and Invisibility with impunity. Every once in a while may not be enough to get the Magic Police looking, but repeat offenders are sure to draw their attention.

- Punishment. To go hand in hand with the previous paragraph. Again, PC abuse of a world like this is the main concern. When they do abuse the system (and they will at some point), punish them accordingly. The Magic Police might place the character in an 5ft. thick antimagicked steel room, naked. Have the character there for at least a full adventure. Make up an NPC for him to play while his character is imprisoned (lower level). By the time he gets out he has missed out on treasure/XP for an adventure. For more serious offenses, cut out his tongue, break his fingers or cut his hands off (these are only appropriate for higher-level campaigns where the wizard can get a regenerate cast on him). Execution should probably out of the question. But just as a car used in a crime (or just used by a criminal) can be taken by the police, the Magic Police might take magic items away and destroy them. It's important that they are destroyed or some PC is going to go looking for them or use some spell combo to get it back.

- Divinations. Big problem here. Some groups, upon getting Find the Path, Commune, Divination and the like can't even make a decision anymore without consulting spells for guidance. First try to push them away from the problem by having the enemy use the same spells on them. If that doesn't get your attention, then maybe the gods have a problem with mortals mettling with powerful divinations on a day to day basis. They start to influence the divinations to not show incorrect, but misleading information. Also, spells like Mind Blank can be used. This can backfire, though. A recent game I played in, the players cast Mind Blank EVERY SINGLE GOD DAMNED DAY ON EVERY SINGLE PARTY MEMBER!! Anyway...

- If you really want to limit magic, make the offending classes prestige classes. This at least doesn't really change the infrastructure of the rules, it just limits what can be done.

 

[Whisper72]

You know what, Whisper? I like your approach. You're simply using the third edition rules and the 1st/2nd edition feel and reasoning.
I will give it a try, as soon as I find a new group of players.
Keep those suggestion coming, though!

Well.. to continue a bit...

There are naturally consequences for the monsters you run into. With less magical items at hand for the PC's (especially less buff items), the CR's kinda go out of the window. Since I never really intended to use them anyways, for me no biggie. How tough an encounter is depends more on the amount of evil / genius I give the monster in its tactics then the abstract CR anyhoo. When a band of 6 kobolds makes good use of alchemist's fire, tanglefoot bags and arrow fire from concealed positions, they are easily a match for 4th level characters. Meeting them on the road, with no opportunity for real preparations / surprise, those same kobolds are toast...

As for the weapons... the whole special defense stuff, for those purposes, a +3 weapon, even though to my reasoning is 'only imbued', still counts as a +3 magical weapon for such purposes, so again no change in the rules themselves.

As to monsters and encounters, as I said before, most encounters are with other sentient races (be they the PC races, goblinoids etc.), so for me books such as 'Savage Species' are very useful. Most threats to civilization do not come from rampaging hordes of demons, but rather from overzealous / ambitious goblin tribal leaders and such.

This does not mean that demons, dragons, beholders etc. do not appear. Some are confined to the Underdark / the Deep. Going there is not something for the faint of heart... Others are met in sinister temples or wizard's towers where they were summoned and maybe bound.

Encountering a demon or a dragon is a memorable experience. They are tough, nasty opponents with all their special powers. In my campaign there would never be a situation like in the 1st 3E module where kobolds have a pet white dragon. Makes a dragon a completely mundane monster. Dragons are from the start born with a malign (for the chromatics) intelligence and would rule a tribe rather then be a pet... I use monsters such as magical beasts, aberrations etc. sparingly.

Coming across a basilisk is a dangerous thing. Without all the buffs, chances that you get 'zapped' are big, and I still use the old rules that raising / resurrection costs a permanent loss of a Con point with all HP loss associated with it. Dying HURTS. We also make use of the System Shock rolls, so it is quite possible that a raise/resurrection/return to flesh etc. attempt fails alltogether, and the character is lost forever...

 

[rushlight]

The problem that Spell is having is simple. You are trying to make real-world sense out of a system designed for narrative amusement. It is not a scientific model. The game world uses the same process as making a movie, or reading a book. "Suspension of disbelief" is essential - and you already do it to a large degree by accepting dragons, demons, and whatnot as part of the world.

The only time you'd need to worry about what happens in a market with an invisible thief would be if 1) your PC was the invisible thief or 2) you decided to throw an invisible thief in for them to try and catch or stop. If it's not dealing with one of those two situations, why is it relevant?

Many things break down under intense scruitny. James Bond wouldn't have made it through his first film if left in the hands of one real life bad guy. That dude would have shot 007 between the eyes in the first act. Nearly any film or book has a premise or two that just dissolves when examined.

So just go with the flow. Don't worry about why there are famines when druids can practically grow crops on tundra. Don't worry why that one old adventurer at the tavern has only one arm (because of a "beholder mishap") when he could have had it Regenerated. Just tell your story, make it fun and move on!

 

[reanjr]

As to magic shoppes, nope, do not exist. To buy or sell specific magic, you need to find special dealers, go to some Wizarding Academy or somesuch. On the other hand, any weapon shop may have a few magical items among its inventory, because they were sold by others, or because the smit made them.

Does anyone else think Craft Magic Arms and Armor should be available expert craftsmen?

Craft Magic Arms and Armor [Item Creation]

Prerequisite: Caster Level 5th OR 10 ranks in either Craft(Weaponsmithing) or Craft(Armorsmithing)

Benefit: [as normal...]
If you are not a caster, you can make generic magical weapons and armor (you can only apply enhancement bonuses to the item). Follow all the normal rules for crafting a masterwork item of the appropriate variety. To make a +1 item, you must spend an additional month working on the item and succeed at a Craft check DC 25. If the check fails, the attempt is ruined and you are left with only a masterwork item. The item can no longer be enhanced with the Craft skill but only by magic.

For each additional enhancement bonus (i.e. a +2 item) you must spend additional time equal to one month more than the previous enhancement and succeed at a Craft check DC 20 + 5 times the bonus. If any single Craft check is a failure, the attempt was too ambitious and you are left with a standard masterwork item. For example: to make a +3 item, you would craft a standard masterwork item. After one month additional work, you have to succeed at a Craft check DC 25. After two more months work, you must succeed at a Craft check DC 30. After three more months (total time of 6 months), you must succeed at a Craft check DC 35. If any of these checks fail, it is a masterwork item only.

Optionally, the item may not actually be magical. It functions in every way as a magical item except that it does not show up to detect magic, etc. Legend Lore may reveal something about the item, though. Additionally, you may rule that a weapon does not go through DR/magic. As a plus, though it might still function in an Antimagic field and be immune to Disjunction.

Topically, this would be a good choice for a setting where you don't have many spellcasters to create items.

An dwarven expert with Skill Focus - Craft (Weaponsmithing) and an Intelligence of 20 at 12th level could have a Craft (Weaponsmithing) modifier of +25. He would be the minimal competency to craft a +5 longsword. Even then, he'd have only a very slim chance of doing so and if he failed, he might have wasted 15 months of his life. He'd automatically succeed on the first check, then he would need a 5, 10, 15, and 20 on his other rolls. According to DMG demographics, the average Large Dwarven City would have on craftsmen so skilled. He might make the attempt 20 times during his long life and only succeed once.

 

[Whisper72]

What rushlight sez is correct. Essentially the same thing hong said. Do not worry too much about the things happening outside the scope of the immediate surroundings of the PC's. For figuring out a reason why, simply cultivate a huge thumb to suck all manner of nonsense out of should players ever ask the question why the old veteran never got around to regenerating his arm... (doesn't have the cash, the lingering effects of the anti-magic ray somehow interferes with healing magic, whatver... you'll think of solutions to any problem if you set your mind to it...)

 

[mhacdebhandia]

A metropolis as defined by the Dungeon Master's Guide is any city with twenty-five thousand citizens or more. The "Community Modifiers" and "Highest-Level Locals" tables suggest that a metropolis can have:

• Four 16th-level wizards
• Eight 8th-level wizards
• Sixteen 4th-level wizards
• Thirty-two 2nd-level wizards
• Sixty-four 1st-level wizards

To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure that these people would be as available for routine magic-working as some people seem to assume. There's a reason that the Eberron setting features magewrights - I would suggest that even the 4th-level wizards would be largely unavailable for "petty" magical services like continual flame spells and the like, simply due to demand. Most of them would, if they were so inclined, be employed as "consultants" with large merchant operations or noble houses - i.e., the kind of people who can afford to pay what the market will bear.

124 people in a metropolis as defined by the Dungeon Master's Guide is not a lot. There could be less than 1,000 PC-class-levelled individuals in a city of 25,000.

 

[Belen]

I regulate magic in my world and I have a ton of magic in that world! I use something similiar to dragonlance to regulate wizards. They all have to take a test to gain power above a certain level and they have to follow the rules of the arcane orders or be hunted down.

Also, I have assigned a common, uncommon, or rare status to all base classes. For instance, sorcerers are rare. Few are ever born with an innate talent for magic and those that are born must carry a draconic bloodline, which has its own troubles associated with it.

Heck, I have use AU magic and classes in my world. AU magic, which cannot be mixed with PHB magic, is known as low magic because it is less powerful, yet more versatile.

For clerics, I just made it so that only a few people are chosen by the gods to be granted power. Most priests never gain magical abilities, and those that do must be paragons of their deity.

It's really all about philosophy. You do not need to restrict magic or classes, you just need to figure out how they are used in a world.

Yes, evil wizards exist in my world, but they would hardly want to go around messing with kings or blowing up castles for fear that they would violate their orders, which have strict rules about what a mage can and cannot use their magic for.

Most spellcasting classes are just rare on my world. They do not exist in such numbers as to really affect things with the use of "everyday" magic.

Dave

 

[Ron]

I've the same thoughts over and over. Here is some of my solutions:

- PCs are very rare individuals, parties of individuals such as they are sort of legendary;

- Money and treasure in general is about ten times less than recommended (and still is too much);

- Magical items are much rarer than what implied in the books and magical shops are non existent;

- Most clerics are unable to cast spells;

- Wizards don't receive spells automatically after gaining a level, they have to find it somehow;

- Wizards are very rare and they don't like to share spells one with the other;

- Some spells are forbidden in my games to keep things under control (e.g., fly, which turns D&D in a true superheroes game and makes castles useless, is banned); and

- Adventurers seldom go after the eight level, after which I believe is too hard to be worthy to keep believability.

It may appear that the result is very different the a normal D&D game, but it isn't. I found this style of gaming more of my likening, although I would encourage anyone too look for its own style.