My problem with vile darkness

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shadow

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With the BoVD out now, DMs are rejoicing with the new opportunities to make their villians depraved and as vile as possible. In spite of the hype, the BoVD presents a pulp view of evil, rather than presenting a manual to role play more "realistic" villians in ones campaign. I mean the BoVD seems to equate evil with shocking and gross, rather than present true evil. While shocking and gross things work well for a four-color or pulp campaign, they aren't necessarily a true depiction of evil.

For example Judeo-Chirstian tradion describes evil as acting against the will of God, and portrays the devil as the source of evil. The devil is a tempter, tempting men to sin. He tempts men not by offers of disgusting and gross things, but rather by offers good and pleasurable things. By getting men to do what is pleasurable in an inapropriate manner, he effectively tempts men to sin. Few people would be turned on by the offer of growing a intelligent tumor on their flesh (like the cancer mage in the BoVD). Evil is most insidious when it appears cloaked in the manner of good or at least pleasure. In fact the name Lucifer comes from Latin meaning something like the Light Bearer. (someone with more Lating skills can provide a more appropriate translation) Contrary to years of folk stories and comics portraying the devil as a guy dressed in a red suit with horns, the bible teaches the devil is a fallen angel, who can appear quite charismatic when it suits him.

Look at the acts of evil in this world. Few people (other than some real sick psychos) commit evil for the sake of evil. In fact many people believe that somehow they are commiting acts of good. Pol Pot's Khamer Rouge killed millions of people to create a "pure" classless society, terrorists destroy buildings and blow up buses to "send a message to imperialists", and in Saudi Arabia, people are executed for blashpemy in the name of creating a moral society. In all these cases people have some type of goal, but evil is created by letting the ends justify the means and persuing the goal in an evil manner (no matter how righteous the cause may appear)

Also where does this idea that evil equals gross idea come from? I stated above that Christianity teaches that the devil himself can appear very Charismatic. This is the same for most evil people in the world. Look at Hitler, he managed to take control of Germany and institute the final solution that was responsible for millions of deaths. The Fuhrer was very popular with the common German people during WW2 because of his natural charisma, and he gave the country a sense of pride and optimism. By blaming the Jews for the countries defeat, he inspired both partiotism and virulent anti-Semitism. Most tyrants also have the same charisma. Look at all these communist revolutions that occured. The people were attracted to leaders who promised reform and an end to poverty. Heck, look at Hannibal Lecter, one of cinema's most evil villians. He is such an effective villian, not because he goes around killing people, but because he has charisma to snare people into his traps.

In none of these cases were any of the atrocities made public. Although Hitler preached out against the Jews, he never publically mentioned the concentration camps. The Soviets never mentioned the Gulags. Evil doesn't go around proclaiming how evil it is. "Look at me! I'm so Eeeeevvvvilllll!" Rather, it often tries to keep a pleasing public face.

All these shocking, gross and evil feats and prestige classes from the BoVD work for the stereotypical pulp fantasy, but they don't have much to do with real evil. Rather than truely explore evil and how to create effective villians, BoVD just regurgitates the standard pulp fantasy evil.
 

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Since when does playing a game based on fantasy have to make sense in the real world? Much less cater to one religious belief?
 

./!

Well, Dragongirl, I wouldn't go painting the response like that quite yet. Evil is a very relative concept, and typically, one's religion dictates what they believe as evil, so it's a valid point.

Being Taoist, I don't believe in true evil. :D

But in any case, I sort of like BoVD. IMHO, depravity is the most frightening thing imaginable. A thing, no person, so twisted and beyond sympathy they are evil for the sake of evil. Horrific tragedies bring smiles to their faces, and they actually revel in the screams of others.

So, while BoVD is a bit extreme and non-realistic, there are those who can still be so twisted by circumstance they become horiffic, depraved creatures.

And it's those that are the most frightening.
 

shadow said:
With the BoVD out now, DMs are rejoicing with the new opportunities to make their villians depraved and as vile as possible. In spite of the hype, the BoVD presents a pulp view of evil, rather than presenting a manual to role play more "realistic" villians in ones campaign. I mean the BoVD seems to equate evil with shocking and gross, rather than present true evil.

That is why it is called "VILE" Darkness, it is the vile part that makes it gross not the evil darkness.

shadow said:
Also where does this idea that evil equals gross idea come from?

See comment above. I think you are missing the point of the book. It is not a book on evil it is a book on vile, gross, disgusting evil.
 

shadow said:
For example Judeo-Chirstian tradion describes evil as acting against the will of God, and portrays the devil as the source of evil. The devil is a tempter, tempting men to sin. He tempts men not by offers of disgusting and gross things, but rather by offers good and pleasurable things. By getting men to do what is pleasurable in an inapropriate manner, he effectively tempts men to sin. Few people would be turned on by the offer of growing a intelligent tumor on their flesh (like the cancer mage in the BoVD). Evil is most insidious when it appears cloaked in the manner of good or at least pleasure. In fact the name Lucifer comes from Latin meaning something like the Light Bearer. (someone with more Lating skills can provide a more appropriate translation) Contrary to years of folk stories and comics portraying the devil as a guy dressed in a red suit with horns, the bible teaches the devil is a fallen angel, who can appear quite charismatic when it suits him.


"Lucifer" is a latin translation of the name of a diety from another pantheon (which one slips my mind at the moment). When missionaries came across pagans (ie, those who weren't Catholic or Jewish), they told the people they were worshipping the devil. That's the reason the devil has so many names. After all, there is only one God. Everything else is just the devil.;)
Sorry if I strayed off topic.
 

Here's a question for you, shadow:

What sort of a book would provide you with material you needed to run your notion of evil more effectively? What sort of material would you need? It sounds like you don't really need any new material at all for those sorts of villains. Give a paladin an evil agenda and you're off.

I mean, I agree sorta that real evil is spookier than anything else, and that evil that isn't obvious can be more effective than the biggest, nastiest demon lords around, but you don't really need any RULES for that, do you? So when WotC was trying to come up with a product idea, maybe somebody suggested such a thing and they figured it wouldn't make such a good book.

I think the book is pretty clear what it's about. Vile Darkness. It's not the Book of Evil, it's the Book of Vile Darkness. If you don't want Vile Darkness in your campaign then don't buy this book. But complaining that it's not the Book of Real Evil doesn't make any more sense than complaining that it's not the Book of Marshmallow Mattresses.
 

I have not gotten, nor looked at the BoVD yet. This is definately something I'm going to have to ponder buying after flipping through it a couple times.

I've never been one to revel in grossness. Especially movies. To me the best villains are the calm, cool, collected ones that don't have to rely on being vile and gross. Dracula vs say...Jason.

I personally think a lot of the vileness could be left off camera. Take Dr. Lecter (in Silence of the Lambs, have not seen the sequel or prequel yet). He was so fascinating because you knew he would tear your liver out an eat it, but it never had to be shown to get the point across. That is what made the point of him using the cop's face as a disguise stand out so much.

If I get the book, it will not be for the prestige classes and feats that have sparked such discussion. My question is does the book have any use for those of us not interested in dumping in dripping entrails all over our campaigns?
 

Evil is taking a country to war in order to line your own pocket.

Vileness is starting the rumor that having unprotected sex with a virgin will cure the AIDS virus.

Aaron.
 

jester47 said:
Evil is taking a country to war in order to line your own pocket.

Vileness is starting the rumor that having unprotected sex with a virgin will cure the AIDS virus.

Aaron.

Or injecting the AIDS virus into 4,000 people, posing as an organization who is actually vaxinating them, to wipe out the country for it's resources.
 

Rather than truely explore evil and how to create effective villians, BoVD just regurgitates the standard pulp fantasy evil.

So, are you agitating for another "Book of [X] Darkness" which describes the sort of villians you mention? Personally, I'd rather see WotC do a "Book of Exalted Light" next. ;-)
 

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