D&D 5E My Quick and Dirty Tasha Read

[Chaosmancer]

Bladesinger's Extra Attack does.

I don't think it does. It says that you can attack twice instead of once with the attack action. Also, you can replace one of these attacks with a cantrip.

So, you can attack twice, but you can't Booming Blade Twice. And Haste lets you make a melee weapon attack, it does not allow you to utilize your Extra Attack feature, so it wouldn't allows a second Booming Blade

Which brings me back to the point I was trying to make, a lot of spells you can buff with are equally good or better on other party members, making it a tougher choice to use them on the Bladesinger instead.

 

[NotAYakk]

I don't think it does. It says that you can attack twice instead of once with the attack action. Also, you can replace one of these attacks with a cantrip.

So, you can attack twice, but you can't Booming Blade Twice. And Haste lets you make a melee weapon attack, it does not allow you to utilize your Extra Attack feature, so it wouldn't allows a second Booming Blade

Which brings me back to the point I was trying to make, a lot of spells you can buff with are equally good or better on other party members, making it a tougher choice to use them on the Bladesinger instead.

See, it doesn't 'you cannot use your extra attack feature', it says 'you can only attack once'.

The question is, is it 'only (attack once)' or 'only attack (once)'.

You could do a tortured reading that you could cast toll the dead (not an attack) and make a weapon attack as part of a hasted action.

1. You are doing the attack action; the "extra attack" feature applies.
2. You are limited to 1 attack. This usually means using "extra attack" is useless, because you can only do 1 attack.
3. But you only attacked once, so no problem (you attacked once, and cast toll the dead once).

Welcome to ambiguous wording.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Ah, this is the debate I already made my rules-lawyer argument for previously. I'm tired and I wasn't even making the connection.

 

[Chaosmancer]

See, it doesn't 'you cannot use your extra attack feature', it says 'you can only attack once'.

The question is, is it 'only (attack once)' or 'only attack (once)'.

You could do a tortured reading that you could cast toll the dead (not an attack) and make a weapon attack as part of a hasted action.

1. You are doing the attack action; the "extra attack" feature applies.
2. You are limited to 1 attack. This usually means using "extra attack" is useless, because you can only do 1 attack.
3. But you only attacked once, so no problem (you attacked once, and cast toll the dead once).

Welcome to ambiguous wording.

Yeah, no. Not going to let that go at my tables. Because then they could make an attack, cast a cantrip, make an attack and cast a cantrip. That is 4 actions when they are meant to have three. And one of those three actions is very specific in intent.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I don't think it does. It says that you can attack twice instead of once with the attack action. Also, you can replace one of these attacks with a cantrip.

So, you can attack twice, but you can't Booming Blade Twice. And Haste lets you make a melee weapon attack, it does not allow you to utilize your Extra Attack feature, so it wouldn't allows a second Booming Blade

Yes, I agree with this reading, you can only ever replace one attack with a cantrip, no matter how many attacks you make with your action.

If you get to take an extra attack action - i.e. multiclass fighter action surge - then you can replace one attack in each set of attacks with a cantrip.

 

[NotAYakk]

Yes, I agree with this reading, you can only ever replace one attack with a cantrip, no matter how many attacks you make with your action.

If you get to take an extra attack action - i.e. multiclass fighter action surge - then you can replace one attack in each set of attacks with a cantrip.

So, the haste ability is an extra attack action. It just doesn't permit more than one attack in it.

"That action can be used only to take the Attack (one weapon Attack only), Dash, Disengage, Hide, or Use an Object action."

The conflict is how to read "one weapon attack only". Does that just prevent a 2nd (or more) weapon attack, or does it ban anything except a single weapon attack?

Both are reasonable readings of the text. I agree that the intent is "nothing but a weapon attack". And I'd play it that way.

The other reading isn't, however, obviously wrong.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Yeah, no. Not going to let that go at my tables. Because then they could make an attack, cast a cantrip, make an attack and cast a cantrip. That is 4 actions when they are meant to have three. And one of those three actions is very specific in intent.

No, it lets them attack once, and cantrip twice (which has to be BB/GFB). Then, if they were dual wielding (which ends bladesong) they can attack again. That's 3 actions, and it comes from casting a 3rd level spell, which can be broken if you lose concentration.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Yes, I agree with this reading, you can only ever replace one attack with a cantrip, no matter how many attacks you make with your action.

If you get to take an extra attack action - i.e. multiclass fighter action surge - then you can replace one attack in each set of attacks with a cantrip.

It is also not totally clear if you as a fighter 11/bladesinger 6 can make 3 attacks and replace one by a cantrip or if they need to chose which extra attack feature they use.
Thhe multiclass rule states, that they don't add together. I think you need to chose between 3 attacks or 1 + 1 cantrip (and one attack as a bonus action if you are an eldritch knight).

 

[NotAYakk]

It is also not totally clear if you as a fighter 11/bladesinger 6 can make 3 attacks and replace one by a cantrip or if they need to chose which extra attack feature they use.
Thhe multiclass rule states, that they don't add together. I think you need to chose between 3 attacks or 1 + 1 cantrip (and one attack as a bonus action if you are an eldritch knight).

Well, the MC rules definitely says the extra attacks granted don't add together.

You can read the first sentence as describing the paragraph, the second sentence as describing what "don't add together" means, then the third one clarifying that it works the same way with similar features.

Or you can read the first sentence as saying "you pick one extra attack feature to use and ignore the rest", the second sentence as being redundant and meaningless, and the third sentence extending it to similar features.

Or you can read it as the rule making clear that the wording "instead of one attack, you can make X" doesn't work if you are already making more than 1 attack. I mean, naively, you could with 1 extra attack feature apply the feature, go from 1 to 2 attacks. Then on the first attack, you apply the feature again, turning that 1 attack into 2 again; so, just as you cannot apply extra attack when you already have more than one attack, you can't apply the fighter's version and the ranger's version, because the perquisite (one attack) is no longer holding.

Assuming you are a level 17 character: fighter 11/BS 6.

Interpretation 1: You can make 2 weapon attacks and cast a cantrip.
Interpretation 2: You can make either 3 weapon attacks, or 1 weapon attack and cast a cantrip.
Interpretation 3: Still unclear. Does the "moreover" only apply if you had used the first part of the feature, or does it apply independently?

Similar dancing of wording applies to the haste attack action. Does it mean "you cannot make more than one attack as part of the attack action" or does it mean "you can do nothing else in the attack action except make one attack" or "you can do whatever you want in the attack action, so long as the result is exactly one attack". Those are all reasonable readings of the haste attack action restriction, and they result in subtle differences in how it interacts with the bladesinger ability (on top of if how you connect moreover to the rest of the bladesinger extra attack feature).

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Myself, a Fighter 11/BS 6 is free to make 2 attacks and a cantrip as part of the attack action. It is T3 and you built your character for just this trick. Have fun. I don't see a serious balance hit here, nor is the wording so tortorous I'd recoil.

I'd also say that Haste is "the only thing you can do is one single attack in the attack action", which bars making a cantrip attack in the hasted action. Haste is already pretty darn strong, it doesn't need the boost.

 

[Zsong]

You dont know that.

Maybe he always wanted to play a Dwarven Monk, but the poor fixed Stat mods to useless stats and useless Armor proficiencies kept him away from the concept.

Not everyone plays in a kitchen sink.