Mystic Theurge PrC - They've got to be kidding!

[JoeBlank]

Just read through this thread and the one at WotC (research for the discussion I know I will have at my game this weekend).

Just gotta say: I love you guys.

Clear, well reasoned, well spelled arguments abound on these boards, and only a couple of people are rude and obnoxious.

Well said, Barcode. My sentiments exactly. I venture over to those boards every once in a long while, and I always end up wondering why I did.

As a wise man once said:

Back to lurking...

Joe

 

[Paragon]

Here's my take on it. Look at the end result, a 20th lvl wizard should be as powerful as any other 20th lvl char. granted there will be specific instances where one class will shine more than others but on average, equal. now this goes the same for multi class chars. granted a 5/5/5/5 char will not be nearly as focused as a straight char (no pun intended) but they should be of around equal "power" lvl. especially since so many things i.e. bab, saves, etc stack. now one thing that is not right is mulit class spellcasting. period. a mage/cleric 10/10 is not even in the same league as either a 20 mage or a 20 cleric. not even the same ball park. there needs to be something that evens out the difference between. i don't think that many of the people that are saying "broken" have played multi class spellcasters, or had much experience with it. granted i knew going in what it was going to be like but let me tell you for about 9 lvls it really really s*cked. bad. there comes a point with multi classing that you aren't as good as either of the classes you have lvls in. and your entire party will begin to outshine you. all this does is bridge that gap. you give up more than you think with it as well. the feats of wizards are great, turn undead for priests is great especially when you are the ONLY person that has it. unless you have a paladin or another cleric, you're it.
i would like to see the context of the prc in the light of the 3.5 rules but as it stands i have to agree that it is broken. it's just doing something we can't do right now. something new, scary scary

Paragon
{edited for spelling, well some of them anyway}

 

[The Sigil]

In support of "overpowered..."

Just for fun, I did an empirical comparison of raw spell power based on the best metric I can think of... anticipated damage dice from spells.

IIRC from the DMG and the Conversion Guide, that the following can be used to gauge the maximum damage a spell does:

WIZARD SPELLS
0th-level spell - 1 die of damage to an individual
1st-level spell - 5 dice of damage to a group
2nd-level spell - 10 dice of damage to an individual
3rd-level spell - 10 dice of damage to a group
4th-level spell - 15 dice of damage to an individual
5th-level spell - 15 dice of damage to a group
6th-level spell - 20 dice of damage to an individual
7th-level spell - 20 dice of damage to a group
8th-level spell - 25 dice of damage to an individual
9th-level spell - 25 dice of damage to a group

CLERIC SPELLS:
0th-level spell - no damage
Otherwise treat as Wizard spell one level lower.

That seems to make it pretty easy and straightforward to convert "spell slots" into "expected damage" split into two categories - individuals and groups.

For the moment, let's drop bonus spells due to high stats.

At 16th level, a cleric has a spell slot array that looks like this:
6/6/6/6/5/4/4/3 (lumping domains spells in with regular spells). We'll ignore the fact that some domain spells are, in essence, wizard spells (and hence have a higher damage cap) for sake of simplicity.

At 16th level, a wizard has the following array: 4/4/4/4/4/4/3/3/2

The Wiz3/Clr3/Mystic Theurgist10 has a clerical array of:
6/6/6/5/5/4/3/2 and a wizard array of 4/4/4/4/4/3/2/1

Now, let's convert this to potential damage dice (and I did cap the straight wizard and clerics' at 16 for levels with a max of 20 or 25 and at 13 for the Theurgist). Now, we can compare:

Cleric 16
Total potential damage dice to individuals: 205 dice
Total potential damage dice to groups: 188 dice

Wizard 16
Total potential damage dice to individuals: 184 dice
Total potential damage dice to groups: 168 dice

Clr 3/Wiz 3/Mystic Theurgist 10
Total potential damage dice to individuals: 256 dice
Total potential damage dice to groups: 231 dice

What's the first thing we notice? Well, first off, we notice that the cleric, with his larger number of spells, is a better "blaster" than a wizard (a surprising find to some, perhaps).

We also notice that the Mystic Theurgist has more raw firepower than EITHER the Cleric or the Wizard... yes, it takes him longer to "empty his holster" but he's got significantly more total punch in his holster.

Mystic Theurgist has
125% the blast power of a Cleric vs individuals
140% the blast power of a Wizard vs individuals
123% the blast power of a Cleric vs groups
138% the blast power of a Wizard vs groups

Conclusion:

Because the Mystic Theurgist has 20-40% more "blast power" than a straight Cleric or Wizard of the equivalent level, the Mystic Theurgist is overpowered.

DON'T think of it as, "max spell level is one lower than a straight class" - think of it as raw blast power... I think that's a better measuring stick anyway. YMMV.

What is the cost of this blast power? In the case of the Wizard, the cost is 3 Bonus Feats. Think a Wizard would give up his 3 Feats for 40% more spells? I do (that would give the wizard 5 or 6 spell slots per level instead of 4). Think a Cleric would give up boosting his Turning Ability for more 20% spells? (giving him 7 or 8 spells per level) especially considering that with the HD and Turn Resistance of most CR 16 undead, a Clr 16 has no prayer of affecting them anyway? Yeah, me too.

I won't call the Mystic Theurgist totally, outrageously broken - but it *IS* overpowered, make no mistake about it... sophistry about "lower highest level spell slot" notwithstanding.

I think I would "tweak" it to have a 3/4 spell progression chart... kind of like BAB.

1st level -> No spell progression
2nd-4th levels -> +1 level in both arcane and divine classes
5th level -> No spell progression
6th-8th levels -> +1 level in both classes
9th level -> No spell progression
10th level -> +1 level in both classes.

This brings the "total blast power" back in line with that of a single-classed character... though it is probably less attractive now since the 14th-level character looks like a 9th/9th caster and thus the disparity in spell slots winds up being two levels (the 9th/9th is only throwing 5th level spells, while the 14th is throwing 7th-level spells).

--The Sigil

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

But surely all that potential blast power means nothing if you can still only cast 1 spell a round (or two with quicken)...consider it that way. What happens is you come back to the disagreement over whether being able to cast spells for longer balances lack of punch in each spell.

*shrug*

It's very hard to quantify, this class. Although I admire the work that the Sigil did, I don't think it accurately shows up the differences. It's far more intangible than that.

Sigil, you example seems to show that with enough time, and no one attacking him, the MT can do more damage in a day than a straight caster. OK, we knew that.

But in a battle, he'll be subject to dispels, counterspell, spell resistance and so forth, all of which will affect how much damage he can do.

First of all, with his -3 caster levels at 16th (effective), he'll fail his spell penetration 15% more often. Reducing his potential damage by 15% gives us...

217.6 dice vs single targets or
196.35 dice vs multiple targets.

And what about if you add in the change in DC's, thus meaning the MT's foes are more likely to make their saves? All this has to be factored in too...

Not trying to start a fight, trying to continue the discussion. I think this class is balanced, but would be most deadly in the hands of a creative player who was prepared to deal with the consequences of having such a character. The PC's mix of divine and arcane would make him awesomely versatile, but nowhere near as powerful in a straight fight.

 

[Dispater]

This seems the kind of class I think would be very interesting to look at, talk about, discuss and analyze but never actually ever allow it IMC...

 

[Grog]

Re: In support of "overpowered..."

What's the first thing we notice? Well, first off, we notice that the cleric, with his larger number of spells, is a better "blaster" than a wizard (a surprising find to some, perhaps).

This right here tells us that this is a bad comparassion. Sure, by the rules, the cleric may be a better "blaster" than a wizard (which tells us, more than anything else, that the rules are seriously screwed up, but that's another topic), but in actual gameplay, does it ever work out that way? Ever?

And anyway, if you're going to do a direct blasting comparassion, you need to take a couple more things into account. First, the MT's DCs will be 1 or 2 points lower than those of the single class casters, because they need to split their points between two spellcasting stats. And second, the MT's caster level is 3 levels lower than the single class casters, which makes it harder to penetrate SR and do damage with those blasting spells.

 

[Arcane Runes Press]

b) how the WotC guys deal with having their products, work and worth continually and unintelligibly derided on a site that they pay for, without having to go home and beat their dogs every night.

They deal with it by:

a) ignoring most of it.

b) cracking open a beer and putting their feet up.

c) by remembering that the worst offenders on the WotC site (and in gaming in general) are UNBELIEVABLY ENVIOUS of them and would strangle their own mothers for the chance to do what they do - but will never get that chance.

Patrick Y.

 

[Endur]

Broken Beyond Belief



I'm not suprised. I expect all of the new 3.5 Prestige classes to be more powerful than any of the 3.0 prestige classes. Likewise, I expect every base class in 3.5 to be more powerful (or the same as) the base classes in 3.0. I don't expect any 3.5 base class or PRC to be less powerful.

So, yes, this PRC is broken in comparison to 3.0 classes. But it might not be broken in comparison to some of the other 3.5 classes.

Personally, I think the "True Necromancer" is a good example of a multi-classed arcane caster/divine caster. The MT blows the True Necromancer out of the water.

Tom

 

[Spatula]

3/3/10 Theurge vs 16 Wizard
Its also noteworthy to point out that if a Theurge took Cleric as his starting class, he will have perhaps 10 more hp and by level 16 equal saving throws except Will, which is 3 higher for the Theurge.

The Theurge's Fort save is 2 higher due to the cleric levels.

 

[The Sigil]

Re: Re: In support of "overpowered..."

This right here tells us that this is a bad comparassion. Sure, by the rules, the cleric may be a better "blaster" than a wizard (which tells us, more than anything else, that the rules are seriously screwed up, but that's another topic), but in actual gameplay, does it ever work out that way? Ever?

*grins* No, it doesn't.

Why?

Because the cleric's blast power (roughly 110% of the wizard's) is spread over 150% as many spells. That means each spell is getting, on average, only about 75% as much power as a wizard spell. But in terms of raw hitting power, yeah, the cleric is overpowered (a contention that has been made on these boards before, no?).

A mystic theurge's blast power is spread over 167% as many spells as the cleric. That means, on average, he gets about 75% as much blast power as a cleric out of any given spell - or roughly 55% as much blast power out of any given spell as the wizard does.

Is this balanced? For the purposes of a single encounter, probably - the Mystic Theurge LACKS pop compared to the other two.

But in a "no rest for the weary" scenario - or a classic dungeoncrawl - or any other scenario that does not assume the PCs get to "re-stock" after every encounter, the "staying power" of the Mystic Theurge wins out.

I guess it's a matter of campaign style - I don't give my players a lot of chances to recover... they usually have to go 4 to 8 encounters (depending on difficulty) before they get a chance to rest... which means, on average (6 encounters at their level), I stretch their abilities (since, in theory, each encounter should sap them of about 20% of their resources and in theory I'm requiring them to pull 120% of their resources out of their backsides over 6 encounters).

This may be the "wrong" perception, but my perception was that a typical D&D game should have roughly 4-5 encounters between rest periods... not 1-2. This is where the theurge makes a HUGE difference... instead of having to rely on burning hands and magic missiles on encounter 4 or 5 (like the wizard), he's still got a couple of fireballs, a flame strike, and an ice storm tucked away - and that makes a HUGE difference.

"Handwaving" the balance issue by saying, "yes, he'll kick butt over time" is just that... handwaving. The game was built to drain PCs' resources... and I hope the classes that exist weren't balanced with "one encounter when fully rested" in mind!

Yes, the mystic theurge will be outgunned in his first encounter of the day. But around the third encounter, he holds his own, and by the time the 5th rolls around, he's worth his weight in gold.

And anyway, if you're going to do a direct blasting comparassion, you need to take a couple more things into account. First, the MT's DCs will be 1 or 2 points lower than those of the single class casters, because they need to split their points between two spellcasting stats. And second, the MT's caster level is 3 levels lower than the single class casters, which makes it harder to penetrate SR and do damage with those blasting spells.

This is a valid point... but there's no easy way to quantify that, IMO... I then have to do second-order analyses based on spell DC by level, then third-order analyses based on spell DC by prime attribute. It's not worth the extra bother to me.

Again, my main point of contention is that "yes, he lacks the raw firepower right off the bat" but that a well-balanced D&D game should challenge the PCs' abilities by requiring them to use ~100% of their resources - IOW, it should be about 5 encounters before the reload period - the "he can keep blasting long after everyone else stops" argument IS and SHOULD BE a compelling one.

Run the Clr16, Wiz16, and Theurge through 5 consecutive encounters (as a party of 3; maybe add a 16th-level fighter too) and let me know how it turns out. Better yet, run them through 10 such encounters non-stop - the Wiz should be "spent" after about 5, the Clr "spent" after about 7, but the Theurge likely will STILL have some wallop for the 10th encounter. THAT is a huge boost.

--The Sigil