Mystic Theurge PrC - They've got to be kidding!

[Thakkar Rogsnar]

Ohhhh yeaaa!

How about a few levels in the geomancer PRC? A now fully armored mage/cleric to boot and tanked out! Nice!! Not happening in my game.

 

[Michael Tree]

Re: In support of "overpowered..."

What's the first thing we notice? Well, first off, we notice that the cleric, with his larger number of spells, is a better "blaster" than a wizard (a surprising find to some, perhaps).

We also notice that the Mystic Theurgist has more raw firepower than EITHER the Cleric or the Wizard... yes, it takes him longer to "empty his holster" but he's got significantly more total punch in his holster.

Conclusion:
Because the Mystic Theurgist has 20-40% more "blast power" than a straight Cleric or Wizard of the equivalent level, the Mystic Theurgist is overpowered.

Even if we assume that "total blasting power" is a good measure of power, this these comparisons are so oversimplified as to be meaningless. They don't take into account:

1) Other responsibilities. Clerics, and probably Mystic Theurges, are assumed to expend a significant number of their spells on healing other party members.

2) Saving throws. Because a Mystic Theurge has two spellcasting stats, his spells will have consistently lower saving throw DCs than a single classed character. Even if he maxes out one stat, the half of his spells that don't rely on that stat will be weaker.

3) Spell Resistance. SR is a harsh reality for high level spellcasters, so a mystic theurge's spells will fizzle 15% more often than either single-classed spellcaster.

4) Average damage per round. This is lower for clerics, and much lower for mystic theurges, than it is for wizards.

The comparison is also done at 16th level, at the peak of the Mystic Theurge's relative level of power. A few levels earlier or later, the MT doesn't fare as well.

So Sigil's comparison, while intellectually interesting, is essentially useless for deciding whether the classes are balanced in play.

 

[Cedric]

I don't think the Theurge is too powerful. I think the wizard is too weak.

3rd edition just hamstrung the Wizard. It went from the most powerful single class in D&D (at high levels), to a second rate wannabe.

The change in the balance of power in 3rd edition is my single biggest complaint about it.

Cedric

 

[Remathilis]

Example Clr3/Wiz3/MT7/Geo7

Requirements: just add 6 ranks of Know: Nature. Its actually scary how close the requirements are, but that is anthor topic.

HD: 10d4+3d8+7d6 (av. 57 + con)

Skills: Know Arcana for all classes, know religion for cleric and MT, Know: Nature for Wiz and Geo, (SP: 2 + 2 + 2 + 4(geo))

Abilities: High Int and Wis. Then Con, finally Dex. Cha is probably going to be dump, since you are a spellcasting freak.

Progression
1 Cleric
2 Wizard
3 Cleric
4 Wizard
5 Cleric
6 Wizard (you can now qualify for both PrC)
7 MT
8 Geo (+1 Cleric, Mix 0 level spells)
9 MT
10 Geo (+1 Wiz, Mix 1st)
11 MT
12 Geo (+1 Clr, mix 2nd)
13 MT
14 Geo (+1 Wiz, Mix 3rd)
15 MT
16 Geo (+1 Clr, Mix 4th)
17 MT
18 Geo (+1 Wiz, Mix 5th)
19 MT
20 Geo (+1 Clr, Mix 6th)

Total Caster Level
Wiz 13 - 7th level spells
Cler 14 - 7th level spells
Geo-Mix up to 6th level spells
* An alt build could just add one more level of Geo (+1 wiz) for MT, and get W13/Clr13 (mix 7th)

Max Int, have a 17 wis, wear full plate, ignore costly components (on some spells), and did I mention Drifts? (You have 7, max lvl 4 drift) and buy that headband of intelligence, then blast away anyone that looks at you funny.

Now, I just gotta find a DM that will let this one fly...

 

[Spatula]

Re: How to make it more absurd!

Could anyone check the limits on those abilities (should there be any) and then can we rant some more !

No limits. Geomancer has similar requirements to the MT (knowledge arcana & nature 6 ranks, cast 2nd level arcane & divine spells), and gains Spell Versatility at 1st level, along with a +1 spellcasting boost. Spell Versatility allows the geomancer to use one ability score to set DCs (either Int or Wis for a Wiz/Clr), removes arcane spell failure for wearing armor, and allows the spontaneous conversion of arcane spells into cure/inflict spells.

Hmmm...

Wiz 6/Clr 3/GeoM 1/MT 10
Wizard caster level: 17
Cleric caster level: 13
Fort +10, Refl +6, Will +17
Avg HP: 60 (1st level as cleric)
Ability to wear full plate, large shield, with no spell failure.

 

[Remathilis]

Spatula...

You forgot one key thing on spell vesatility, it's keyed with spell level. Your build Wiz 6/Clr 3/GeoM 1/MT 10 could only use his Int mod and ignore spell failure for ZERO 0 level spells. If you plan on doing alot of Ray of Frost, you're golden, but otherwise, you need more Geomancer levels to make Geomancer worth it.

My uber build (wiz3/clr3/MT6/Geo7) might have only 7th level spells, but he can use them in full plate and with his Int mod. He'll need a 17 wis to still cast 7th level divine spells (spell versatility doesn't ignore that), but he can spontaneously convert his arcane spells to healing also.

 

[JayOmega]

OK, Sigil pointed out that a pure blast-'em Theurge was more powerful than a wizard or cleric in the same role. Let's look at this more deeply.

First, he showed that the theurge has more power (by 2%, but that's still more) versus individuals than versus groups.

Take fully-loaded blast-'em characters at 20th level. Default stat array is 15, 14, ... so give them Int 15 and Wis 14 to start. Both put all five +1's for level advancement into Int. For full blasting power, both are specialists for the extra wizard spells, and the Theurge can use all his domain spells for damage, using the hypothetical "Kaboom" domain. To take down strong monsters, both characters have both of the Spell Focus and Spell Penetration feats, for +4 to DC and +4 to beat SR. Both use spells resisted by Reflex saves, and they are the sort of spell that does half damage on a successful saving throw (i.e. standard blasting spells).

The wizard buys a +6-ability item and a +5-ability book for 173500. The Theurge, to be balanced, should spend the same, netting two +6 items and a +4 book. So Wizard has Int 31, Theurge has Int 30, Wis 20. (The Theurge makes out like a fat rat on this, as Int 30 and Int 31 are equivalent stats.)

Spells per day (base + stat + bonuses):

Wiz:
4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4
0 3 3 2 2 2 2 1 1 1
1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
-------------------
5 8 8 7 7 7 7 6 6 6

his spells have saving throw DC = 24+level, and his versus-SR rolls are at +24.

Theurge:
4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 + 6 5 5 4 4 3 2 1 0 0
0 3 3 2 2 2 2 1 1 1 + 0 2 1 1 1 1 0 0 - -
1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 + 0 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 - -
-----------------------------------------
5 8 8 7 7 7 7 5 4 3 + 6 8 7 6 6 5 3 2 0 0

Save 24+Level, vs SR +21 for Wiz spells, and Save 19+Level, vs SR +17 for Cleric spells.

Or, assume the Theurge can max out his stats, buying two +6 items and two +5 books. The extra money he spends versus the wizard could buy the wizard two Rings of Wizardry, a type II and a type IV. Theurge now has Int 31 and Wis 25.

Spells per day:

Wiz as above, plus two rings:
---------------------
5 8 12 7 11 7 7 6 6 6

Save 24+L, vs SR +24

Theurge:
4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 + 6 5 5 4 4 3 2 1 0 0
0 3 3 2 2 2 2 1 1 1 + 0 2 2 2 1 1 1 1 - -
1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 + 0 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 - -
-----------------------------------------
5 8 8 7 7 7 7 5 4 3 + 6 8 8 7 6 5 4 3 0 0

Save 24+L, vs SR +21, Save 21+L, vs SR +17

So, against an infinite line of Orcs (no SR, can't make saves except on a 20), they have blasting ability of:

Wiz I:
5x1 8x5 8x5 7x10 7x10 7x15 7x15 6x20 6x20 6x20 = 795 dice
reduced for saving throws to: 775 dice

Theurge I:
5x1 8x5 8x5 7x10 7x10 7x15 7x15 5x17 4x17 3x17 +
6x0 8x1 7x5 6x10 6x10 5x13 3x13 2x13 0x13 0x13 = 932 dice
reduced for saving throws to: 908 dice

Advantage, Theurge by +17%.

Wiz II:
5x1 8x5 12x5 7x10 11x10 7x15 7x15 6x20 6x20 6x20 = 855 dice
reduced for saving throws to: 833 dice

Theurge II:
5x1 8x5 8x5 7x10 7x10 7x15 7x15 5x17 4x17 3x17 +
6x0 8x1 8x5 7x10 6x10 5x13 4x13 3x13 0x13 0x13 = 973 dice
reduced for saving throws to: 948 dice

Advantage, Theurge by +14%.

So, against worthless foes, the Theurge is stronger.

But why are 20th level characters blasting Orcs? Let's put them up against the only 3.5th monster we've seen, the Revised Pit Fiend. His reflex saving throw is his worst one, at +19 (and he uses Unholy Aura in the "0th" round to make it +23) and his SR is 32. No CR is given for the RPF, but I assume he's a fair fight for a 20th level group containing our 20th level Wizard and/or Theurge.

(The following lines are base spells, % that get by SR, % damage after saving throws, and remaining "effective dice" of damage)

Wiz I:
5x1 8x5 8x5 7x10 7x10 7x15 7x15 6x20 6x20 6x20
.650 .650 .650 .650 .650 .650 .650 .650 .650 .650
.525 .550 .575 .600 .625 .650 .675 .700 .725 .750
-------------------------------------------------
1.70 14.3 15.0 27.3 28.4 44.4 46.1 54.6 56.6 58.5 = 346.9 dice

Theurge I:
5x1 8x5 8x5 7x10 7x10 7x15 7x15 5x17 4x17 3x17
.500 .500 .500 .500 .500 .500 .500 .500 .500 .500
.525 .550 .575 .600 .625 .650 .675 .700 .725 .750
-------------------------------------------------
1.3 11.0 11.5 21.0 21.9 34.1 35.4 29.8 24.7 19.1

6x0 8x1 7x5 6x10 6x10 5x13 3x13 2x13 0x13 0x13
.300 .300 .300 .300 .300 .300 .300 .300 -- --
.525 .525 .525 .525 .525 .525 .550 .575
-------------------------------------------------
0.00 1.30 5.50 9.50 9.50 10.2 6.40 4.50 = 256.7 dice

Advantage, Wizard by +35%.

Wiz II:
5x1 8x5 12x5 7x10 11x10 7x15 7x15 6x20 6x20 6x20
.650 .650 .650 .650 .650 .650 .650 .650 .650 .650
.525 .550 .575 .600 .625 .650 .675 .700 .725 .750
--------------------------------------------------
1.70 14.3 22.4 27.3 44.7 44.4 46.1 54.6 56.6 58.5 = 370.6 dice

Theurge II:
5x1 8x5 8x5 7x10 7x10 7x15 7x15 5x17 4x17 3x17 +
.500 .500 .500 .500 .500 .500 .500 .500 .500 .500
.525 .550 .575 .600 .625 .650 .675 .700 .725 .750
-------------------------------------------------
1.30 11.0 11.5 21.0 21.9 34.1 35.4 29.8 24.7 19.1

6x0 8x1 8x5 7x10 6x10 5x13 4x13 3x13 0x13 0x13
.300 .300 .300 .300 .300 .300 .300 .300 -- --
.525 .525 .525 .525 .550 .575 .600 .625
-------------------------------------------------
0.00 1.30 6.30 11.0 9.90 11.2 9.40 7.30 = 266.2 dice

Advantage, Wizard by +39%.

Against "real" foes, the Wizard is substantially stronger. The Theurge still has more total spells, but I think this shows that the Theurge really is trading versatility for power.

Edit: forgot to mention that this was the 7Wiz/3Clr/10MT version of the Theurge.

 

[zorlag]

-

If you replace extra wizard levels with True Necromancer levels Theurge gets a nice boost... full caster levels on necro spells help destroying enemies and you can also employ nice array of buff spells to boot...

Z.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Also, because this is in something of a vacuum, we can't make a whole lot of determination. Perhaps Wizards will have more to give up in 3.5? (I could see them beefing up the skills a bit, and perhaps giving one or two more familiar treats, and the change in some spells will mean that certain example spells may not be the classics anymore)

I said it before, and I'll say it again:

Saying that the MT is overpowered because it has more spells/day is like saying that the Sorcerer is overpowered because it has more spells/day.

And as for PrC's being ways to mitigate poor choices -- that's why things like the Lasher exist. However, I *do* have a problem with those types of PrC's...fundamentally, you can't have a whip-warrior without the Lasher. Just like you can't have an effective cleric/wizard without the MT. It means that it's that much more limiting...I'd have preferred it to be goverened by feats/class powers/whatever, and have spiced up the PrC a bit. It's like a void in the campaign that ONLY this PrC can fill...and I do have some problems with a PrC as a 'fix'.

Now, for the flaws I see in it:
* As Psion pointed out, it is a VERY dull class..you could spice it up, but they wouldn't have abilities to reflect the spice.
* This is a 'fix' for a more fundamental problem, so it reeks of 'half-assedness.' A Wiz/Sorc, for instance, is still skrewed. The problem is mitigated somewhat by examples like the FFd20 Magicians, which allow caster levels to stack, but it remains a rather fundamental problem to the system itself -- the divide doesn't cross as easily as the attack bonus divide, because it's not a universal.
* It means that NO Clr/Wiz or Clr/Sorc is as valuable as this PrC. Effectively, it's a PrC that HAS to exist, or power is lost. It's a PrC that FORCES you to use it, or suck. I am disturbed at it...they shouldn't suck without the PrC...

 

[Oni]

I think I've figured out part of what's bugging me about the Mystic Theurge. This PrC is a responce to a general failing of the multiclass system, but part of what irritates me is that it really comes across as a bandaid fix. If they recognize the problem why are they trying to patch the hole with a PrC rather than actually reworking the multiclassing rules.