Mystic Theurge PrC - They've got to be kidding!

[Ravellion]

Re: In support of "overpowered..."

On the Sigil's Blast power theory

What? You don't actually believe that this reasoning makes sense right? you are going to pull the other one real soon right? You know how many Blast potential a fighter with flasks of Alchemist fire has at 20th level?

Or, for that matter, an elven fighter with 10 strength and a longsword. 10 rounds a minute, 60 minutes an hour, 16 hours a day he can hack/blast away (No save!), let's say he just hitswith one attack a round, he would have 9600 dice!

OMG!

9600 dice a day!

20th level, 10 str Elf fighters with mundane longswords are BA-ROKEN!

I am sorry, but if that is how you determine balance, I never want to see you design any game materials.

 

[Spatula]

Now, how about Wizard/Druids?

Geomancer (MOTW)

Wizard/Rogues?

Arcane Trickster (T&B)

Arcane/Fighter

Spellsword (T&B)

Divine/Fighter

Warpriest, among others (DOTF)

There's a lack of cleric/rogue PrCs, although there are some divine-flavored rogue PrCs like the Temple Raider of Olidramma (S&S), or the one in FRCS.

 

[The Sigil]

Re: Re: In support of "overpowered..."

20th level, 10 str Elf fighters with mundane longswords are BA-ROKEN!

I am sorry, but if that is how you determine balance, I never want to see you design any game materials.

Away put the histrionics and ludicrous examples. Would you be surprised to know I have two rules-crunchy products out right now that have gotten good reviews?

Note I didn't call it MUNCHKIN. And I didn't call it BROKEN. I called it "somewhat overpowered." There's a difference.

*Does Miracle Max voice*
Look who knows so much... "Somewhat overpowered" is partly balanced. With "all overpowered" there's only one thing you can do... go through the book and look for loose change (dropped by the munchkin - or his DM - who was stunned when he read it and dropped what he was holding - the money to buy it)...
*turns off voice*

The difference between the fighter (among other things) and the "blaster" is that the fighter must put himself in the line of fire and soaks up melee damage... the blaster doesn't (or shouldn't). The other difference is that the fighter has to roll to hit, the "blaster's" damage is semi-automatic (in most cases, save for half, but still, that's autmoatic).

Furthermore, there is another BIG difference - the wizard can whip out his dagger and the cleric can whip out his mace - and do exactly the same 9600 dice. And since he only has to do this when he runs out of spells (of which the wizard is packing about 40), he adds 9580 to his total dice. So the wizard is STILL more broken than the fighter, with a total of 9780 dice potential.

Finally, and I don't have the books in front of me, but IIRC, FATIGUE becomes a big limiting factor in the fighter example. As I don't have my books, I can't recall exaclty how it works, but IIRC, X rounds of combat fatigue a character (X is 10? Not sure). X rounds later, the character would be fatigued again - but a character who is fatigued and would become fatigued becomes exhausted (-6 to Str, Dex, half movement). Suddenly, the fighter becomes much less of a threat... particularly if you keep throwing fresh foes his way.

Heck, done this way, (assuming I remember correctly and X is 10), the fighter is in MORE trouble in a single long encounter than the blaster (who could presumably clear a big enough swath to rest for a round every ten rounds an thus stave off fatigue).

More Monday - have to get home from work - but the histrionics are silly. I was trying to measure raw spellcasting power, and "total dice of damage you can inflict with your spellcasting power" seems as good a hard metric as any. I was NOT attempting to compare spellcasting power to melee power... and the discussion never WAS about the relative merits of those, but about the relative merits of different spellcaster spell slot/level combinations.

And this will probably get me gnomed, but I'll follow it up with this...

"Your avatar is a gnome - therefore what you say doesn't count!"

--The "I haven't been gnomed yet - but I bet that's about to change..." Sigil

 

[Ravellion]

Unfortunately Sigil, "Blast power" isn't "as good a method as any" for determining balance. You have taken something from spell design guidelines (note... guidelines, not rules, many spells actually break these), and apply them to a situation where they don't belong.

Staying power is a slight balancing factor, but it
a) isn't measured to the degree you measure it.
b) it sets a horrible precedent.

According to you, the innate spell power from the FRCS is overpowered, since it let's you *gasp* cast Magic Missile as an innate ability infinite times... now that's Blast Power. Phwoar!

I am sorry, but I am not saying the MT isn't slightly powerful (although I am thinking it is actually fine, now I have time to think about it more), but your reasons for it are ludicrous. I always reply with ludicricy when confronted with it. A bad habit perhaps, but I feel silly explaining things seriously to people whose viewpoints I have a hard time to take seriously.

And I don't even allow PHB Gnomes IMC

 

[I'm A Banana]

(By The Sigil)
Finally, and I don't have the books in front of me, but IIRC, FATIGUE becomes a big limiting factor in the fighter example. As I don't have my books, I can't recall exaclty how it works, but IIRC, X rounds of combat fatigue a character (X is 10? Not sure). X rounds later, the character would be fatigued again - but a character who is fatigued and would become fatigued becomes exhausted (-6 to Str, Dex, half movement). Suddenly, the fighter becomes much less of a threat... particularly if you keep throwing fresh foes his way.

No offense, man, but...those must be house rules. I'm pretty sure the fatigue of long battles doesn't go into any calculation of D&D combat...otherwise, the Wiz and the Ftr should both suffer from the same fatigue...(but perhaps -6 Wis/Int/Cha, half movement, due to mental instead of physical exhaustion).

Also:

"total dice of damage you can inflict with your spellcasting power" seems as good a hard metric as any.

seems to be a faulty premise. It doesn't take into account the time used to cast those spells, or the variety of spells that can be selected, or (and here's a key for higher levels) Save or Die spells, or spells that are incapacitating without being damaging. It also doesn't take into account scrolls or wands, which fundamentally make up for the 'lasting power' of even the most impovrished mage. They basically can cast Magic Missle, Fireball, etc. all day and not worry about running out of magic.

Also, I think you give undue weight to the earlier combats. Spellcasters will blow their low-level magic on low-level mooks, and they'll run out of spells fairly quickly because it doesn't take a lot to kill them...monsters of a CR are draining, but not damaging. Light off a few Magic Missles, or a Fireball, and you're golden for the combat. A MT can do the same thing against the low-level goons.

Then, you face the big challenge, and the wizard can unleash the big guns (and then back this up with scrolls and wands of the lower-level stuff), while the MT (who can't even use the higher level stuff) is stuck with casting a billion low-level spells. Sure, they can have scrolls and wands, too, but they concentrate on versatility...so they'll spend their money instead making up that -3 levels to dispellign and SR (because the SR is still going up, even if their casting ability isn't). And nothing, NOTHING, can make up for the lack of high-level spells, just like NOTHING can make up for the fact that a Wizard and a Cleric can't cast certain spells of the other classes.

So, basically, any Wizard worth his salt is far from limited by his spells/day in his actual casting potential. Just like any Sorc worth his salt is far from limited by his spells known list in his actual versatility. Magic items make up for that. What the MT gets is two different types of magic, entwined. They can do things a Wiz or a Cleric can't, at the cost of being able to do both crappier.

Saying the MT is more powerful because it gives you more spells per day is like saying that the Sorc is more powerful than the Wizard because it gives you more spells per day....fundamentally, they are balanced in the same way.

 

[Kobold Curry Chef]

The MT will only be a level, sometimes two, behind the single-class caster, though. It's not like they're casting spells 3 levels lower than their companions. Early on, it's more of a liability than later--a Clr3/Wiz3/MT1 will be casting 2nd-level spells; a Clr7 will be casting 4th. Ouch. One level later, it's 3rd vs. 4th, and then so on up the chain.

After about 10th level overall, there's really not a big gap. There's not a tremendous difference between a 5th-level and a 6th-level spell, for instance.

Anyway, if the point of the MT is to "fix" the cleric/wizard combo, and one of the other goals of 3.5 is to make characters viable and fun across 20 levels, then the MT fails to do its job, to my thinking. It would have been better to write a new core class, perhaps.

 

[LuYangShih]

So I missed that reference. I was wrong. Big whoop. Y'know, just because the internet is the home for the rude reply, doesn't mean you have to make one.

And who said I did? Why is it unless you completely sugarcoat every response made on an internet board, possibly with several disclaimers, it's construed as rude? My reply was meant as a lighthearted jab, not as an insult. Good grief.

 

[green slime]

I completely disagree with The Sigil's spellblast theory. Although it was a good point to read as it has now completely convinced me that this PrC is in no way overpowered.

My reasoning is this:
Sure the MT has more spells. That is his advantage. But you deliberately choose to ignore the fact that, his spells will be saved against more often (thus reducing further the damage inflicted), and against SR, will be more likely to be completely inefficient altogether.

So on average, as a damage dealer, the MT will be inflicting far less blast damage. This aspect carries over into other aspects of spellcasting.

When it comes to support spells, his spells will last less time, and be more likely to be dispelled.

Thirdly, while having more spell slots, he has less high level spell slots to metamagic spells efficiently.

 

[drnuncheon]

The MT will only be a level, sometimes two, behind the single-class caster, though. It's not like they're casting spells 3 levels lower than their companions. Early on, it's more of a liability than later--a Clr3/Wiz3/MT1 will be casting 2nd-level spells; a Clr7 will be casting 4th. Ouch. One level later, it's 3rd vs. 4th, and then so on up the chain.

True...but even if they're casting the same spell, the MT is at a disadvantage in a lot of cases. 3 dice less of damage on their fireball, for example, or 3 hours less on their buffs.

J

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

How to make it more absurd!

Well the thing that occurs to me is how to become even more absurd having attained the absurd heights of 10th MT and whatever else (3/3 let's say) cleric/wizard or similar.
The most evil way to be a munchkin (and I know, I did this) is to pick and choose prestige classes which have similar entry requirements, such that you combine the impressive (but gained at low-level) abilities of them all. I cite the Fighter/Rogue/Holy Liberator/Order of the Bow Initiate/Templar *gasps for breath*.
Therefore, take this MT and assuming they won't get round to the 'Complete Divine Type Person' source book in a while, combine with the Geomancer. This class (I forget the requirements right now) is fun, and all in all not *too* bad considering the fact that you end up a bit of a weirdo by the end. I can't quite remember what the limits were on the abilities, but I think you can squeeze the ability to cast arcane (read wizard here) spells in armour without penalty. This with the MT is nasty, as you end up with a heavily armoured wizard who happens to be not a bad cleric on the side (and only needs to use one stat to dictate all bonus spells too!), oh and they might have fur or something weird like that.
Could anyone check the limits on those abilities (should there be any) and then can we rant some more !