Mystic Theurge too good or not?

[WattsHumphrey]

First, I don't see any way an 18th level Theurge could have beaten eight properly equipped 16th level characters without some seriously bad tactics on their part, some really lucky rolls on his part, or some other advantage (like attacking from prepared ambush or something). And if he did win, an 18th level Wizard probably would have done just as well in the same situation. Quite possibly even better, having 9th level spells and all.

Also, if you used 3.0 Haste, you skewed the test in favor of the Theurge, since having more spells is more of an advantage if you can cast them faster.

I don't see how he should have beaten them either, which is why I dislike the class so. As for 9th level spells, I may be strange in my assessment that they are beyond compare to anything else in the game. Part of this character was the express intent NOT to destroy them with spells so powerful that they break the power curve.

And yes, I already stated that the 3.0 haste should have been a big benefit, but as most of his power came in beating up the party physically, the 3.5 haste wouldnt' have been much worse. Plus, the 3.0 haste let the party dispel him multiple times a round, which was a really big boon for them (and, had they gotten lucky, they would have stood a chance against him).

 

[Grog]

I don't see how he should have beaten them either, which is why I dislike the class so. As for 9th level spells, I may be strange in my assessment that they are beyond compare to anything else in the game. Part of this character was the express intent NOT to destroy them with spells so powerful that they break the power curve.

And yes, I already stated that the 3.0 haste should have been a big benefit, but as most of his power came in beating up the party physically, the 3.5 haste wouldnt' have been much worse. Plus, the 3.0 haste let the party dispel him multiple times a round, which was a really big boon for them (and, had they gotten lucky, they would have stood a chance against him).

Wait a minute. You're saying the Theurge killed the 16th level party in meele combat? I'm assuming he must've cast Tenser's Transformation - that's the only possible way he'd have a chance in hell of doing that. But that would have made him ridiculously easy to beat - he can't cast spells or use magic items when he's in Tenser's, so all the 16th level party needs to do is cast Forcecage and he's helpless. He can't end the Tenser's early, so the party has 15 rounds until the spell wears off to hit him with arrows and spells. There's absolutely no way he could survive that.

And even without Forcecage, there's still no way he should have had a chance of winning in meele combat. An eight character party is probably going to have at least two spellcasters, if not more. So with 3.0 Haste, that's at least four Greater Dispels per round being thrown on him. Assuming the Theurge went Wiz5/Clr3/MT10, the party's spellcasters only need to roll a 10 or better to dispel his wizard spells, and an 8 or better to dispel his cleric spells (remember, his caster level for wizard spells is 15, and for cleric spells it's 13). So unless they had a run of insanely bad luck, after the first round, well over 80% of the Theurge's buff spells would be gone. And since he's within meele range of the party's fighters and rouges, once his buff spells go down, he's dead meat in no time flat.

Or else, party wizard casts Antimagic Field and moves to within 10' of the Theurge. Poof, all the Theurge's spells are surpessed. Then a party fighter or barbarian grapples him, and he's easily slain after that. There are lots of different ways the 16th level party could have easily won the fight.

So like I said, either the party suffered from incredibly bad tactics or incredibly bad luck (which wouldn't make this a fair test of the Theurge's abilities), or something else was screwy.

 

[WattsHumphrey]

Wait a minute. You're saying the Theurge killed the 16th level party in meele combat? I'm assuming he must've cast Tenser's Transformation - that's the only possible way he'd have a chance in hell of doing that. But that would have made him ridiculously easy to beat - he can't cast spells or use magic items when he's in Tenser's, so all the 16th level party needs to do is cast Forcecage and he's helpless. He can't end the Tenser's early, so the party has 15 rounds until the spell wears off to hit him with arrows and spells. There's absolutely no way he could survive that.

And even without Forcecage, there's still no way he should have had a chance of winning in meele combat. An eight character party is probably going to have at least two spellcasters, if not more. So with 3.0 Haste, that's at least four Greater Dispels per round being thrown on him. Assuming the Theurge went Wiz5/Clr3/MT10, the party's spellcasters only need to roll a 10 or better to dispel his wizard spells, and an 8 or better to dispel his cleric spells (remember, his caster level for wizard spells is 15, and for cleric spells it's 13). So unless they had a run of insanely bad luck, after the first round, well over 80% of the Theurge's buff spells would be gone. And since he's within meele range of the party's fighters and rouges, once his buff spells go down, he's dead meat in no time flat.

Or else, party wizard casts Antimagic Field and moves to within 10' of the Theurge. Poof, all the Theurge's spells are surpessed. Then a party fighter or barbarian grapples him, and he's easily slain after that. There are lots of different ways the 16th level party could have easily won the fight.

So like I said, either the party suffered from incredibly bad tactics or incredibly bad luck (which wouldn't make this a fair test of the Theurge's abilities), or something else was screwy.

All I'm saying is that you're specifying exacting tactics to beat the encounter. The encounter was beatable. It was beatable through several tactics. The easiest, of course, would have been to run until the buffs went down. Specifying tactics like 'every group should have AMF and Forcecage' works. And it will work most of the time against many (not all) opponents. What I'm trying to say is that needing to use exact tactics that the group may (or in this case, as those spells were not prepared) or may not have had with them is a sign of overpowerment.

If the only way to beat an encounter is with a small number of spells, then the encounter is more powerful than it should be. And in this case, the class is more powerful (IMO) than it should be.

You seem to be missing the point, so consider this to be a "I don't plan to argue anymore" post. If you believe it isn't broken, more power to you. I'm never allowing one again.

 

[Number47]

One, if the MT had to cast all those buffs during combat and he was using 3.5 haste, then he would've been killed before ever really getting into combat. Round 1, cast Divine Power. Gets dispelled. Round 2, cast Divine Power. Gets dispelled.... etc. If you just said "Oh, he has twenty buff spells all active when you encounter him," then you are simply setting up the encounter for the group to fail. You can do this with any spellcaster and probably better.

Two, the only thing you are even close to proving is that certain Prestige Class combos are broken. I note that your "Mystic Theurge smack" relies pretty heavily on the True Necromancer. What does this prove about he Mystic Theurge, really? Run it with known 3.5 spells and don't use other prestige classes. Even better, don't run it at high level. Mystic Theurges have to survive to those level, too.

 

[Grog]

All I'm saying is that you're specifying exacting tactics to beat the encounter. The encounter was beatable. It was beatable through several tactics. The easiest, of course, would have been to run until the buffs went down. Specifying tactics like 'every group should have AMF and Forcecage' works. And it will work most of the time against many (not all) opponents. What I'm trying to say is that needing to use exact tactics that the group may (or in this case, as those spells were not prepared) or may not have had with them is a sign of overpowerment.

Well, if by "exact tactics" you mean "something besides standing there and swinging at him while he chops us all to pieces," I suppose you're right.

Seriously, players have to use different tactics to defeat enemies all the time. It's part of the fun of the game. Send your same 16th level party up against a White Wyrm (CR 18, same as the Theurge) and see how far they get without using at least some tactical skill.

If the only way to beat an encounter is with a small number of spells, then the encounter is more powerful than it should be. And in this case, the class is more powerful (IMO) than it should be.

A fully buffed-up high-level Cleric or Wizard is also going to very tough to beat without "a small number of spells" (chiefly Greater Dispelling). Does that mean Clerics and Wizards are more powerful than they should be?

And anyway, I was just giving a few examples I thought up off the top of my head. I'm sure there are many more ways that party could have beaten the Theurge. (I'm surprised they didn't eventually kill him even if they were just doing a straight-up slugfest - there were eight of them, after all).

You seem to be missing the point, so consider this to be a "I don't plan to argue anymore" post. If you believe it isn't broken, more power to you. I'm never allowing one again.

That's your decision. But the class isn't overpowered.

 

[LokiDR]

A Theurge will be powerful in a game with few magic items.

But in a game with relatively little combat, he's more at a disadvantage. His advantage over a straight Wizard is more spells. If the Wizard never runs out, though, those extra spells are no real advantage.

No, outside of combat, you will want to have more options, and that is exactly what the Thurge is.

 

[LokiDR]

First, I don't see any way an 18th level Theurge could have beaten eight properly equipped 16th level characters without some seriously bad tactics on their part, some really lucky rolls on his part, or some other advantage (like attacking from prepared ambush or something). And if he did win, an 18th level Wizard probably would have done just as well in the same situation. Quite possibly even better, having 9th level spells and all.

Also, if you used 3.0 Haste, you skewed the test in favor of the Theurge, since having more spells is more of an advantage if you can cast them faster.

7 characters

Average level 13.5

You should check the details more closely next time.

I specifically mentioned 3.0 haste because I thought it was relevant. Please note there is probably going to be a higher level spell that allows for casting more spells in a round. Also note, three characters in the PC's party were primary spellcasters and could have benefitted from haste. Also, the necromancer was high enough that he should have been a hard fight.

As for what the fight proves, it doesn't PROVE anything. It does show the class works well, if nothing else. I think a 18th level wizard could have done just as well. The amazing varity of the character did allow him to do things the PCs didn't expect, like move into melee combat. Also, some clerical and arcane spells have an amazing synergy (divine power and Transform).

Not definitive, but some food for thought.

 

[Number47]

...Please note there is probably going to be a higher level spell that allows for casting more spells in a round....

Probably? I think that should be "not bloody likely". Perhaps whatever Time Stop becomes, and Quickened spells. Other than that, I think they learned their lesson in 3E.

 

[Norfleet]

I don't really see the class as overpowered outside of a one-shot context. PCs taking the class who actually have to advance through those levels won't be achieving an awe-inspiring level of power anytime soon, and as such, it probably makes a better BBEG than a PC class.

 

[LokiDR]

First off, I would like to say forcecage is cheese and should not be allowed. No save, no SR, the only way out is dim door, teleport, or disintegrate. So that means it defeats most things in the game. Great job.

A fully buffed-up high-level Cleric or Wizard is also going to very tough to beat without "a small number of spells" (chiefly Greater Dispelling). Does that mean Clerics and Wizards are more powerful than they should be?

And anyway, I was just giving a few examples I thought up off the top of my head. I'm sure there are many more ways that party could have beaten the Theurge. (I'm surprised they didn't eventually kill him even if they were just doing a straight-up slugfest - there were eight of them, after all).

Wizards and Clerics ARE more powerful than they should be, at least commared to fighter types.

The reason they couldn't beat him down is because he was invisible, flying, and displaced. Also, see my earlier note about the details of the fight. If they could all see him and all get to him, and had not been scattered by the running around and fear effects, they could have beaten on him. His AC was arround 48. He was stoneskinned. Good luck beating him down.

As for dispelling, they tried that. Being an APL 13, no one had taken greater dispelling yet. The sorcereres tried dispelling him over and over and over, but he had a lot of levels on her and she couldn't see him for the first half of the combat. AMF was out of the question as well.

Any other ideas beside Forecage cheese and AMF that they could have done? They began to hurt him after they dispelled his shield and fly, the pelted him with magic missles while flying. Then he took out a bow and they ran.