Mystic Theurge too good or not?

[LokiDR]

Probably? I think that should be "not bloody likely". Perhaps whatever Time Stop becomes, and Quickened spells. Other than that, I think they learned their lesson in 3E.

So there is nothing weaker than Time Stop on the "making casters faster" scale? Seems silly to me.

 

[Grog]

7 characters

Average level 13.5

You should check the details more closely next time.

Um, I wasn't replying to your post.

 

[Grog]

Oh, I see. You were talking about the same test that Watts was. Well, in his post, he said the average party level was 16.

If the average party level was 13.5, then I'd have to say it wasn't really much of a test. I don't see why you thought that sending a well-prepared and buffed 18th level arcane spellcaster against a 13-14th level party would be anything other than a slaughter. An 18th level wizard probably would have beaten them with ease too. I'm not sure about an 18th level cleric, but he probably would have given them some serious problems at the very least.

Suppose you'd sent a White Wyrm up against that party. How would they have fared? Heck, make it an Ancient White Dragon instead, since dragon CR's are universally too low. Would they have done any better?

 

[Pax]

First off, I would like to say forcecage is cheese and should not be allowed. No save, no SR, the only way out is dim door, teleport, or disintegrate. So that means it defeats most things in the game. Great job.

Actually, if it's a BArred Cage version, Gaseous Form would let you out. As would Plane Shift (of course).

The reason they couldn't beat him down is because he was invisible, flying, and displaced. Also, see my earlier note about the details of the fight. If they could all see him and all get to him, and had not been scattered by the running around and fear effects, they could have beaten on him. His AC was arround 48. He was stoneskinned. Good luck beating him down.

You mean noone had an Invisibility Purge?

OR See Invisible plus Glitterdust?

Severe, gross tactical/strategic failure on the PC's part. Among the party's three primary spellcasters, shoudlhave been some way to counter invisibility for the party in general.

And one mass fly spell gets the whole party airborn, to swarm the Theurge up close (where fireballs hit the theurge TOO, if he tries for the whole party).

As for dispelling, they tried that. Being an APL 13, no one had taken greater dispelling yet. The sorcereres tried dispelling him over and over and over, but he had a lot of levels on her and she couldn't see him for the first half of the combat. AMF was out of the question as well.[/b]

So, you took a part (APL 13), up against a CR18 encounter ... and you're SURPRISED they lost, and almost suffered a TPK?

Any other ideas beside Forecage cheese and AMF that they could have done? They began to hurt him after they dispelled his shield and fly, the pelted him with magic missles while flying. Then he took out a bow and they ran.

Like I said -- glitterdust. Even if he makes the save vs the blinding ... he's been revealed to all and sundry. And any 13+ level spellcaster without at least a PERSONAL means of seeing the invisible, needs to retire RIGHT NOW.

 

[LokiDR]

You mean noone had an Invisibility Purge?

OR See Invisible plus Glitterdust?

Severe, gross tactical/strategic failure on the PC's part. Among the party's three primary spellcasters, shoudlhave been some way to counter invisibility for the party in general.

And one mass fly spell gets the whole party airborn, to swarm the Theurge up close (where fireballs hit the theurge TOO, if he tries for the whole party).

2 characters had see invis. 1 had an item that granted that power. And I have never seen a caster take mass fly. Tatical errors, perhaps, but far from the complete morons you seem to think they are.

So, you took a part (APL 13), up against a CR18 encounter ... and you're SURPRISED they lost, and almost suffered a TPK?

7 characters. I never said the combat was supposed to be easy, and I never said I was surprized they lost. Only surprized at how little they actually could do to him.

Like I said -- glitterdust. Even if he makes the save vs the blinding ... he's been revealed to all and sundry. And any 13+ level spellcaster without at least a PERSONAL means of seeing the invisible, needs to retire RIGHT NOW.

The cleric occasionally takes invis purge, but the wizard and sorcerer don't even know glitterdust. Does every caster in games you play take this spell? Perhaps you should tone down a bit and stop demanding characters retire.

 

[Pax]

2 characters had see invis. 1 had an item that granted that power. And I have never seen a caster take mass fly. Tatical errors, perhaps, but far from the complete morons you seem to think they are.

Thre, of the seven? And (one can only infer), not sharable means?

Those are grievous tactical errors, not minor ones.

7 characters. I never said the combat was supposed to be easy, and I never said I was surprized they lost. Only surprized at how little they actually could do to him.

Even with 7 characters, you're 5 steps higher thantheir APL. That's still, IMO, 4 stps higher than what their party should be able to handle without significant risk of TPK.

The cleric occasionally takes invis purge, but the wizard and sorcerer don't even know glitterdust. Does every caster in games you play take this spell? Perhaps you should tone down a bit and stop demanding characters retire.

RE cleric: only occasionally?

RE wizard and sorceror: more the fools, they.

RE commonality of glitterdust: <b>every</b> sorceror I make takes glitterdust -- mainly because it retains SOME utility all the way through to epic levels (in combination with a permanent See Invisibility, it lets the character pinpoint the invisible enemy for hte "meatshield" types, so thay can pound on it).

 

[Shalewind]

7 characters. I never said the combat was supposed to be easy, and I never said I was surprized they lost. Only surprized at how little they actually could do to him.

Then how is this relevant at all to the discussion of wheter or not the MT is overpowered or not? If you have said that nothing about the battle was balanced, why is this even being discussed when the main question of the thread is "Is MT balanced?"

An 18th level caster against a group of 13-14th level people, are you kidding?

and from this comment:

When the necromancer was throwing spells, it was at the rate of 6/round. Imbue familar, quicken spell, and share spell-haste with familar. He ran out of offensive spells very quickly, but I had plenty to choose from.

Whoa! I'd say very little of his multi-casting power was coming from the MT end of things.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Add in the fact that he had the one class which completely breaks the MT (ie - the true necromancer), and it becomes clear.

For those who don't know, the true necromancer adds together his cleric and wizard caster levels for certain spells (IIRC necromantic or evil ones). Which means that such a character virtually IS getting two caster levels for every level of MT he has.

By my calcualations, that particular build would have been a 28th level caster for any necromantic spell.

I don't doubt that the TN will be altered significantly in 3.5 (or the MT will take it into account).

 

[LokiDR]

Add in the fact that he had the one class which completely breaks the MT (ie - the true necromancer), and it becomes clear.

For those who don't know, the true necromancer adds together his cleric and wizard caster levels for certain spells (IIRC necromantic or evil ones). Which means that such a character virtually IS getting two caster levels for every level of MT he has.

By my calcualations, that particular build would have been a 28th level caster for any necromantic spell.

I don't doubt that the TN will be altered significantly in 3.5 (or the MT will take it into account).

Actually, TN says it adds the arcane and divine levels, not casting ability. Because of this, I did not double count the Thurge levels. I have a fealing the sage will rule in a similar way, though only time will tell.

 

[green slime]

The "test" proves diddley squat.

I can build and prepare an 18th level Cleric that will give a party of seven 13-14th level characters more than a run for their money.

Number47 would have a bard whip their rear ends in short order.

The MT is fine as is. Boring in the description text. Just as I like it. For, to be meaningfully placed in my world, I'd have to change the text anyway! Flavour I provide. Let the books provide the rules.