Mystic theurge vs pure wizard/cleric

[Trellian]

I'm about to create a 15th level character for a new campaign, and was thinking about creating a Mystic Theurge. The build would be Wiz/Clr/Thu 3/3/9. I was wondering if it is worth sacrificing 3 levels of wizard or cleric spells for the class? This build would have access to 6th level spells, while a pure wizard or cleric would have access to 8th level spells. Would this character be underpowered?

 

[darthkilmor]

This build would have access to 6th level spells, while a pure wizard or cleric would have access to 8th level spells. Would this character be underpowered?

It seems you understand the limitations, what exactly are you asking ?
Also, what are you stats, as that would be somewhat relavent.

 

[Scharlata]

[...]Would this character be underpowered?

Hi!

It depends, me thinks.
It's a factor of how you'd value the pure power of high-level spell access to the access of more middle-level spells plus the versatility of your spell repertoire plus the possibility to prepare the "lower-level" versions of arcane/divine spells of the same name.

Some favor the pure power of an 8th-level spell over one 6th-level divine + one 6th-level arcane spell; other do the other way around.

Enjoy!

 

[Rkhet]

Two spell levels is a LOT. Eighth level spells, especially on the Wizard side, are insanely powerful if used correctly.

To truly pull this off, you'll need to do the Ur-priest cheese.

Barring that, yes, it is underpowered.

 

[Trellian]

What Rkhet says is what I'm asking.. how much do you really lose when you sacrifice 2 spell levels... versatility vs. specialization.. not to speak of the fact that I'm also losing turn undead, familiar benefits and wizard bonus feats.

Ur-priest cheese?

Edit: Dunno the stats yet.. I'm just preparing what character I'll create..

 

[Bront]

I think it's fairly well balanced. It's the spell power versus versitility. You're down 2 spell levels, and 3 caster levels in your spells, so your spells are not quite as powerful and a bit easier to resist, but you get a huge variety of spells that can help you make up for it.

Keep in mind the other thing you end up being short on is actions, so a Mystic Theurge has to look to cast spells more because he has so many of them.

I find it strange that for a class that so many people screamed "This is unbalanced!" about, that it's actualy getting more support for being underpowered.

Another interesting twist on this is the Arcane Hirophant from Races of the Wild, which is Druid/Arcane, and a bit more flexable beyond spell casting. You end up with a 4/3 split of levels due to a requirement for the class, but you can still cast high level spells (6th for both at 15th), you get a companion familiar, and can still wildshape.

 

[Bront]

What Rkhet says is what I'm asking.. how much do you really lose when you sacrifice 2 spell levels... versatility vs. specialization.. not to speak of the fact that I'm also losing turn undead, familiar benefits and wizard bonus feats.

Ur-priest cheese?

The Ur-Priest has ways to make up for lost caster levels, though not as badly as some people have twisted the class.

Turn Undead isn't that big of a loss, since you can still use divine feats with them. The familiar has as many HP, he's just dumber and doesn't get some of his cooler powers, but how often is a familiar being used anyway?

The bonus feats, you're giving up 3 to gain casting abilities of a 12th level cleric.

As for the spells, just keep in mind that 7th and 8th level spells will not be accessable, so that's 3-4 uses of spells at that level per day. Gague that vs the Utility of having an entire second class of spells at your disposal for your use. And since some spells have both spells, you can always pick the less exciting spell level to swap out a spell that's in both (Stat boosters, protection from elelments, and dispel magic to name a few).

 

[Rkhet]

No, no, the point of the Ur-priest cheese is that you still get level 9 spells on the Cleric side, pre-epic.

It goes like this: Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/Ur-priest 2/MT 8. Since ur-priest grants 9th level spells in ten levels, you'll have 7th level wizard and 9th level cleric spells by level 16. Which is one level earlier than a full cleric.

In fact, by level 20 you'll have level 9 spells on both sides.

 

[Trellian]

That sounds like an awesome combo.. but I don't think I'm allowed (or want to play anyway) evil characters.. which Ur-Priest requires.

 

[amethal]

I'm about to create a 15th level character for a new campaign, and was thinking about creating a Mystic Theurge. The build would be Wiz/Clr/Thu 3/3/9. I was wondering if it is worth sacrificing 3 levels of wizard or cleric spells for the class? This build would have access to 6th level spells, while a pure wizard or cleric would have access to 8th level spells. Would this character be underpowered?

I think mystic theurge is an interesting class to play.

Our party's mystic theurge has twice taken the practised spellcaster feat (from Complete Arcane / Divine) to keep his caster levels up. He also has 3 levels of elf paragon and 1 of wizard (rather than 3 wizard levels) and has taken the first level elf wizard racial substitution level from races of the wild. He does not appear underpowered. He is also still getting plenty of mileage out of spells like grease and glitterdust.

I suggest you give it a go.

Either - the rest of the party is low on clerics / wizards, so you won't have single-classed casters to worry about competing with

Or - other party members are filling the cleric and wizard roles, so they can compensate for your lack of high level spells, but you won't have to worry about too many characters filling the same role since your role can then be as a backup healer, utility caster, with a spell for all occasions.