D&D 5E Mythological Figures: Achilles (5E)

Drizzt

 

[Mike Myler]

There’s an approach that legendary figures should be better than PCs. My preferred approach is that PCs *are* the legendary figures of their world. Your characters are your World’s versions of Achilles and Lancelot and Robin Hood. PCs are the best in the world, and our own myths and legends should be about on the same level.

Ideally I'd like to end up with a smorgasbord of mythical figures and to achieve that Achilles should *not* top out the power scale--that might end up being Beowulf (I think) because he does some really ridiculous stuff.

If we started with Achilles having a Strength of 20, how high does it have to go for Hercules? Thor? I've got a thing already for the more bombastic designs but their playability is nullified by landing outside of the design sweet spot (which is roughly 5th-12th level, depending on tastes).
Don't get me wrong, I love high-level games (I have books all about it!) but to maximize usability builds will ideally land within a CR range appropriate to four-five adventurers nestled in there at mid-level.

As for rage and where that falls in the spectrum of D&D and Ancient Greece, I abdicate to Sean K. Reynolds (who did a great 3.0 era book that is free called New Argonauts which I highly recommend) and reserve that for adventurers from outside of the city-states.

 

[Eltab]

Achilles' Heel:
If an attack roll against Achilles is anything other than a natural 20, it misses. On a natural 20, the normal rules (including Critical Hit) are applied.

Achilles will not be hit very often, but when he is hit, it will really hurt him.

(Inspired by a huge-AC Paladin in real play. He boldly went up against every foe he faced, knowing he would almost never be hit. When he WAS finally hit, it almost pounded him flat in one blow.)

 

[Eltab]

Along with Robin Hood:
- Little John
- Friar Tuck
- Maid Marian (who for this purpose was not helpless and could fend for herself, at least long enough for help to arrive)
All of whom will be less powerful than Robin

 

[pemerton]

Ideally I'd like to end up with a smorgasbord of mythical figures and to achieve that Achilles should *not* top out the power scale--that might end up being Beowulf (I think) because he does some really ridiculous stuff.

How are you measuring "ridiculous stuff"?

Beowulf spends a long time underwater. Achilles can call upon the gods to save him from the river Scamander. Those both seem prety good for underwater adventuring (just to focus on one aspect of their exploits).

 

[Mike Myler]

How are you measuring "ridiculous stuff"?

Beowulf spends a long time underwater. Achilles can call upon the gods to save him from the river Scamander. Those both seem prety good for underwater adventuring (just to focus on one aspect of their exploits).

Beowulf tears a limb off of Grendel with his bare hands (which is, the internet says, roughly equivalent to 22,500-45,000 pounds of force). Depending on the version that might be a tough weird fighter that's vaguely humanoid, in others it's a half-dragon or similarly resilient freak (which is what I'm figuring on so the equivalent effort goes up). Hercules is definitely going to have a lot of impressive strength-related things (advantage on Strength checks, treated as two sizes larger for lifting things, maybe for wielding weapons too, limited resource ability to indefinitely lift an object of any size like the sky/world, etc. etc. stuff like that) so that in a tumble he and Beowulf would have an interesting outcome (for instance, ideally Hercules will be more likely to win in a grapple even if his Strength score is ultimately lower) but in terms of mechanical brute strength in order to equate the numbers in my head, I think Beowulf needs to have the biggest ability score bonus.

 

[Jay Verkuilen]

If we started with Achilles having a Strength of 20, how high does it have to go for Hercules? Thor? I've got a thing already for the more bombastic designs but their playability is nullified by landing outside of the design sweet spot (which is roughly 5th-12th level, depending on tastes).
Don't get me wrong, I love high-level games (I have books all about it!) but to maximize usability builds will ideally land within a CR range appropriate to four-five adventurers nestled in there at mid-level.

It depends a lot on your view of the world and who's running around in it, but Strength 20 is really not difficult to get. A 6th level fighter can have it without a major stretch. IMO a 6th level fighter is a local area's Big Bad John, but by no stretch of the imagination is a civiization-level legendary. Heracles is, by contrast, the great hero of his age. He's clearly as strong as giants and indeed one of his deeds is to hold up the world for a time as well as defeating Antaeus, one of the strongest giants. He's constantly beating the snot out of foes, often by wrestling them and presumably killing them to death.

I'm not really sure that this is represented very well given the brick wall stat cap. Most characters would obtain their top stats in their prime requisites by level 8 or so, which doesn't feel all that world-striding legendary to me. Very few characters can get stats over 20, although the 20th level barbarian can gain giant-level Strength and Constitution. Heracles definitely feels barbarian to me: He walks around with a giant olive-wood club and is known for being nigh-indestructible, violent rages, and massive feats of strength. He's also got a girdle (Girdle of Giant Strength?) and might well have some divine gifts due to his birth.

I get what you're saying, though: Not having everyone maxed out makes them a lot more useful in game, but Heracles to me pretty much begs to be maxed. Classical mythology has many examples of lesser, or at least not nearly so maxed, heroes that can be perfectly well statted using the game.

All that said, note that an archmage is only CR 12 so even if you make Heracles a Level 20 barbarian with some extra abilities, he's still a reasonable foe for level 12 characters. He probably wouldn't even be that hard for a party that's built to take on his weak points.

 

[Quartz]

Heracles is, by contrast, the great hero of his age. He's clearly as strong as giants and indeed one of his deeds is to hold up the world for a time as well as defeating Antaeus, one of the strongest giants. He's constantly beating the snot out of foes, often by wrestling them and presumably killing them to death.

Heracles is the son of Zeus, King of the Gods; Achilles is way down the pecking order.

 

[Kobold Stew]

Assuming there is a pecking order is anachronistic -- it's just not the way the Greeks thought of it.

Zeus had many children. Among the mortals were Rhadamanthus and Minos, along with Heracles and Helen. Heracles' excellence emerges not simply because of who his father is, just as Achilles' excellence does not come form his mother.

 

[Pauln6]

I cannot give enough XP for this!

I'll do a proper (likely not quite as powerful) Morgan le Fay later but I've got a placeholder until then.
View attachment 95220

I recall my brother had a supplement featuring versions of Merlin and Morgan le Fey that attributed their abilities as displayed in the stories rather than class assumptions. I think Merlin was a high level Druid and a low level wizard. Morgan was a Druid / Cleric with some access to illusions.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Beowulf tears a limb off of Grendel with his bare hands (which is, the internet says, roughly equivalent to 22,500-45,000 pounds of force).

Maybe Beowulf actually used a Sword of Sharpness (because, y'know, it's about the only thing in D&D that can remove limbs), but left that out of his testimony because said sword was stolen (because, how does a D&D character acquire anything: home-invasion robbery)...

Alternately: "My hands are registered as lethal weapons - specifically, they count as a Sword of Sharpness." - Beowulf warning Grendel before they fight.

Heracles is, by contrast, the great hero of his age. He's clearly as strong as giants and indeed one of his deeds is to hold up the world for a time as well as defeating Antaeus, one of the strongest giants.
I'm not really sure that this is represented very well given the brick wall stat cap.
Heracles definitely feels barbarian to me: He walks around with a giant olive-wood club and is known for being nigh-indestructible, violent rages, and massive feats of strength. and might well have some divine gifts due to his birth.

A Greek being statted as a Barbarian would be a tad ironic.

He's also got a girdle (Girdle of Giant Strength?)

In D&D, sure. Magic items are the only way (or best/easiest way) to do a lot of things.

...

Y'know the mythological hero who should be easy to do in D&D? Perseus! He's festooned with magic items and uses them - and careful planning - to remove virtually all risk or difficulty from the act of killing Medusa. (Malice aforethought, really.) Then uses Medusa's head to kill the sea-serpent menacing Andromeda (or just stabs it in the back - so, yeah, guess he's a Rogue).