Nasty trick - will it work?

[Magius del Cotto]

Hm....

This gives me an interesting idea. Instead of the caster/wall combo, what happens when you have a fighter type ready an action to throw a rock into the path of a fireball? Would it cause the fireball to detonate early (preferably just as it leaves the sorcerors hands)? What would the AC of the Fireball be in this case? What happens if the character gets a crit on the attack roll, what then? Would it fly through the fireball, detonating it, and hit the caster as well (for 1d3+Strength in addition to the fireball damage)?
On a side note, what other things could a character throw/shoot to make the blast detonate early? Would an arrow work? Would a dagger? What about a greatsword?
What about potent magic items that are used for this? Would they go boom as well, causing even more damage? What about spells? Would a magic missile targeting a fireball and the caster work? Ah, so many questions.
I'm personally all for letting them work. None of these examples is really overpowered, but they are fun ways to do some cool stuff in the combat.
Magius out.

 

[Magius del Cotto]

Hm....

[edit - doublepost] Nothing to see here. Move along, move along.

 

[MerakSpielman]

It'd be hard to hit such a tiny target that's moving so fast. I'd let them try it, though, with a readied action. Again, though, the odds of somebody readying an action specifically against a fireball are pretty slim. Why not instead ready an action to fire your spells/arrows at the caster if he starts casting a spell?

 

[WizarDru]

Yes, this is true. But, the reason for this is due to one round spells where your target might move away. It is not to prevent a readied action from disrupting the spell.


Fireball is cast. Wall of Stone goes up in front of it. Boom. Toasty Sorcerer every time.

This tactic is also good against all other spell that have a line of effect or a target (other than the caster) because it prevents them from targeting and result in the spell being lost.

Do you have a specific cite for where that intent was represented? Because it sounds like your trying to eat your cake and have it, too. The "pertinent decisions" statement in the casting time section immediately follows discussing free-action spells, with 1 round casting time spells prior to that. The statement is a separate paragraph, and isn't talking about either, specifically.

Not all readied actions complete before the action they specify...this isn't Magic: The Gathering, here. A counterspell completes at the same time as the spell it's preventing, even though technically that breaks verisimilitude...but in some ways, so do readied actions.

Regardless, read the passage I quoted for Readied actions: the person continues his action. You seem to be saying that the spell "comes into effect" before the caster has actually finished casting it, and thus he must have already chosen the pertinent effects. That doesn't seem to match other aspects of the game, including choosing your targets while making multiple attacks, or choosing to make a full attack after a single-attack, provided you haven't moved. If a melee character readies to attack if you plan to cast a spell, in hopes of ruining your concentration, he's hoping from stopping you from casting the spell. The spell that has not come into effect yet, because it hasn't been cast. At this stage, all the sorceror has done is decided to cast Fireball.

He can't change his ACTION, but his action is I'm going to cast Fireball. The selection of pertinent decisions hasn't occured yet, any more that it would for an archer in the same situation.

Now, if you formed a wall in a hemisphere over the sorceror, trapping him...he still has to cast that fireball, and now he's in a world of trouble. But that's not the same thing as making a wall appear in front of him.

You may find that silly or lacking in verisimilitude...but that's the price you pay for an abstract combat system, particularly one which lets you cast a reaction spell that should take the same amount of time as the spell it's reacting to, and allow it to complete first.

 

[WizarDru]

Evil Twin Post!

Spooky!

 

[Darklone]

Actually, I had one group member once who tried such a stunt... throwing a shield into the path of a fireball pellet. By the D&D rules to hit a fast moving pretty small target, it would have been horribly easy...

 

[KarinsDad]

Do you have a specific cite for where that intent was represented? Because it sounds like your trying to eat your cake and have it, too. The "pertinent decisions" statement in the casting time section immediately follows discussing free-action spells, with 1 round casting time spells prior to that. The statement is a separate paragraph, and isn't talking about either, specifically.

...

He can't change his ACTION, but his action is I'm going to cast Fireball. The selection of pertinent decisions hasn't occured yet, any more that it would for an archer in the same situation.

"The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action."

He does not continue with new actions. Selecting new targets for the spell is a different action. Similar, but different.

You cannot segment a standard action. You cannot split it up into pieces. If you cast Fireball, that is what you do, including selecting targeting range, direction, etc.

The fact that the situation has changed in the middle of your standard action is irrelevant.

Post something from the book where a rule or example illustrates that you can change any portion of your standard action in midstream. Not a full round action, but a standard action.

 

[Philip]

I do not understand all of the discussion on this.

Fireball is cast. Wall of Stone goes up in front of it. Boom. Toasty Sorcerer every time.

I think you are misinterpreting the ready action. With readied actions you can act before your opponent finishes his action, not during his action. Although I agree the rules are not very clear on this.

IMO you may dive for cover when the archer is aiming his arrow at you, not when the arrow is already flying through the air at you.

Can one in your campaign avoid a sword blow while delivering a blow of your own by 'interrupting' him during his downward swing with a readied action? A readied action such as executing a melee attack of your own and then moving a 5 ft. step back (as part of the readied action) thereby putting yourself out of his reach and out of danger?

That's how I am reading the Wall of Stone/Fireball example. If you can do that, you can do what I mentioned above.

 

[WizarDru]

The fact that the situation has changed in the middle of your standard action is irrelevant.

Post something from the book where a rule or example illustrates that you can change any portion of your standard action in midstream. Not a full round action, but a standard action.

I already did, we just don't agree on the interpetation. You're right, it's not a new action and the change in situation is irrelevant....it's the same action. He doesn't have to select his target, range and any other number of factors until the spell is fully cast. He doesn't have to declare his target when he starts casting the spell, so if the situation is different, it doesn't matter, because he isn't changing his action, he's completing it.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, because you read the rule completely differently than I do.

 

[KarinsDad]

Can one in your campaign avoid a sword blow while delivering a blow of your own by 'interrupting' him during his downward swing with a readied action? A readied action such as executing a melee attack of your own and then moving a 5 ft. step back (as part of the readied action) thereby putting yourself out of his reach and out of danger?

That's how I am reading the Wall of Stone/Fireball example. If you can do that, you can do what I mentioned above.

Yes, you can do that. In fact, that is a "standard" tactic against a charge, especially with a reach weapon. Someone charges up to you while you have a "ready for attack and then step back 5 foot". He comes up and attacks, you interrupt him, attack him, and retreat 5 feet. He cannot continue his move since his action was to charge to you, not to charge past you in anticipation of a readied action (the exception to this is if he is performing an overrun with the charge, where stepping back 5 feet only helps in that you do not get knocked prone, but even then he can continue his overrun if he has move left over). With a reach weapon you can actually get 2 attacks against him. One for the AoO of moving 10 feet to 5 feet through your threatened area and another for your readied action (if you ready to move 5 feet first and then attack or if using a spiked chain).

The downside is that if someone does not attack you, you do not get your readied action.

Pros and Cons. Otherwise it would be Cons and Cons for readied actions if the trigger action could be changed in any way.

With regard to standard action spells, there are two sentences that illustrate this:

3.5 PHB page 174: "You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect."

3.5 PHB page 140: "Most spells have a casting time of 1 standard action. A spell cast in this manner immediately takes effect."

So, the instant you cast it, it immediately takes effect and you make all pertinent decisions. Immediately. It is irrelevant that the readied action triggers immediately before that.

The issue here is that a standard action cannot be broken down into smaller chunks. There is no start of standard action, middle of standard action, and end of standard action. There is only standard action. It is indivisible (the exception to this is that you can do free actions or not an action within a standard action). Now, the standard action might not occur (opponent moved away, caster knocked unconscious, etc.) or the conditions might change (opponent knocked prone so you are now at +4 to hit), but the standard action itself cannot be change.

A Full Round Action, on the other hand, can be broken down into smaller chunks (in some cases). For example, with a Full round attack, you can attack one opponent, knock him unconscious and then decide to attack a different opponent, or move away. With a One round spell, it is not until immediately before your initiative on the next round when it actually gets cast that you have to declare target, area of effect, etc.

But, full round actions are different than standard actions. The action is the action. If an opponent readies an attack against you, you cannot change your Power Attack modifier after his readied attack since it is all part of your standard action.

Ask Hyp. He'll tell you (if he's around).