Nasty trick - will it work?

[KarinsDad]

I already did, we just don't agree on the interpetation. You're right, it's not a new action and the change in situation is irrelevant....it's the same action. He doesn't have to select his target, range and any other number of factors until the spell is fully cast. He doesn't have to declare his target when he starts casting the spell, so if the situation is different, it doesn't matter, because he isn't changing his action, he's completing it.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, because you read the rule completely differently than I do.

No, I read the rules as written.

3.5 PHB page 140: "Most spells have a casting time of 1 standard action. A spell cast in this manner immediately takes effect."

He does have to immediately select his target, range, and other factors for a spell that takes a standard action to cast since it takes effect immediately.

 

[WizarDru]

No, I read the rules as written.

3.5 PHB page 140: "Most spells have a casting time of 1 standard action. A spell cast in this manner immediately takes effect."

He does have to immediately select his target, range, and other factors for a spell that takes a standard action to cast since it takes effect immediately.

No, you and I both read the rules as written. We just interepert them differently. The spell immediately takes effect when cast. The spell is not cast until the action is completed. The pertinent decisions are made when the spell is cast, which does not occur until the action is completed.

 

[Silverglass]

Yes, you can do that. In fact, that is a "standard" tactic against a charge, especially with a reach weapon. Someone charges up to you while you have a "ready for attack and then step back 5 foot". He comes up and attacks, you interrupt him, attack him, and retreat 5 feet. He cannot continue his move since his action was to charge to you, not to charge past you in anticipation of a readied action (the exception to this is if he is performing an overrun with the charge, where stepping back 5 feet only helps in that you do not get knocked prone, but even then he can continue his overrun if he has move left over). With a reach weapon you can actually get 2 attacks against him. One for the AoO of moving 10 feet to 5 feet through your threatened area and another for your readied action (if you ready to move 5 feet first and then attack or if using a spiked chain).
<snip>

Oh absolutely not on the charge failing, his action is to charge "You", not charge a specific spot on the map. As long as "You" can still be reached by the charge it will complete as long as the other conditions remain valid.

The cases where failure does happen are a) your 5ft step takes you back further than they can reach with their movement or b) their charge was to a "corner" square and your 5ft step sideways takes you out of their reach.

Edit - I did just think of a very tricky application of this - if the person is charging you then by stepping back you could force them to continue charging past some of your allies - thereby drawing additional AoO's from them as they will have leaft a threatened area, although it only works if the DM does not allow someone to just stop performing an action before it is complete.

 

[DMFTodd]

SRD: Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action.

The crux seems to be, what happens if the person can't continue his action due to the readied action taking place? I've always played that the person loses their turn (they take no action if the readied action prevents them from doing what they plan) though the rules don't explicitly say that.

Consider a wizard and an archer: Wizard readies the wall if archer shoots, archer announces that he's going to shoot, wall goes up, archer can't shoot now. Does the archer get to do something else as some of you are suggesting? (Archer: Since the wall is there, I move. Wizard: Then I don't do the wall, Archer: Then I shoot, Wizard: Then I do put up the wall, etc.)

The only thing that makes sense to me, is that the interrupted character has to continue the action he stated. I don't think it's so simulataneous that the interrupted person *has* to do what he said, he can choose to do what he said or to do nothing. So for the fireballing wizard, he lost his target and decides to just lose his turn. He could fireball the wall if he wants. He can't change spells, send the fireball in a different direction or do something completely different.

 

[KarinsDad]

No, you and I both read the rules as written. We just interepert them differently. The spell immediately takes effect when cast. The spell is not cast until the action is completed. The pertinent decisions are made when the spell is cast, which does not occur until the action is completed.

What is this concept of the "action is completed"? There is a concept of the action being interrupted (and not being completed as desired), but there is no concept of the "action being started" followed by "action being completed". There are no rules for that. Please quote one.

You declare your action. Whether that action turns out the way you want it to or not is irrelevant to your declaration of what you are doing.

"Most spells have a casting time of 1 standard action. A spell cast in this manner immediately takes effect."

"You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect."

The caster effectively decides what he is doing and he decides everything when he starts casting (for a spell that takes a standard action). There is no "game mechanic" of this being segregated into multiple different components of the standard action. There are "game mechanics" that it can be interrupted (via AoO, via Concentration, via a Readied action), but once he starts to cast (which is often the condition for an interrupting Readied action), according to the two rules I quoted above, he has made all of the pertinent decisions on the spell.

That's the rules.

If you want to interpret them to mean something other than what they say, that's ok for your game. But, that's a house rule.

If you still think you are correct, quote a rule that supports your position. The two rules I quoted do not support your position.


You make the pertinent decisions when the spell comes into effect and it comes into effect immediately unless another rule like an AoO interrupts it. If it is not interrupted, it is cast immediately. Even if it is interrupted, it is cast immediately and normally unless some condition of casting is prevented (like a failed concentration roll or the line of effect being lost).

And, this applies to all actions unless the rules specify otherwise.

You declare your Power Attack ratio when you declare the attack action, not after you find out that a readied action tripped the opponent you were about to attack.

The resolution of an action is only handled after all of the details of the action are declared. The only possible exception to this is Movement Actions where it is unclear.

 

[KarinsDad]

Oh absolutely not on the charge failing, his action is to charge "You", not charge a specific spot on the map. As long as "You" can still be reached by the charge it will complete as long as the other conditions remain valid.

The cases where failure does happen are a) your 5ft step takes you back further than they can reach with their movement or b) their charge was to a "corner" square and your 5ft step sideways takes you out of their reach.

Incorrect.

From 3E SRD: "The charge stops as soon as the character threatens the target."

You threaten the target when you get within threat range, not when you actually attack. The fact that you then no longer threaten the target because of the readied action is irrelevant.

The 3.5 rules go into more detail, but the 3.5 SRD is down at the moment.

Basically, they state something to the effect that the charge has to be in a straight line to the closest space to the target (or some such). But, you still stop at that point. There are no rules for continuing the charge (there are rules for continuing an Overrun, but not for a charge).

 

[WizarDru]

If you still think you are correct, quote a rule that supports your position. The two rules I quoted do not support your position.

Had you noticed that we're both quoting the same thing to support our position? The only difference is you're combining two separate statements into a single one and taking them to mean the same thing.

Perhaps you can define for me what 'comes into effect' means, since obviously it means something different things to me than to you.

To repeat an SRD quote from earlier: "The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. "

In other words, you're interrupting action completes before his action. He began his action, and now he completes it. Otherwise, how could you interrupt it in the first place? When the action is completed, the spell is now cast, and effects are determined. The spell can't be immediately in effect until the he actually takes his action.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

You threaten the target when you get within threat range, not when you actually attack. The fact that you then no longer threaten the target because of the readied action is irrelevant.

But if the readied action is resolved before the trigger, then wouldn't the spearman move back before the charger actually threatened him? And thus the charger would keep moving until he did...

 

[KarinsDad]

But if the readied action is resolved before the trigger, then wouldn't the spearman move back before the charger actually threatened him? And thus the charger would keep moving until he did...

No because the opponent had to threaten the target in order for the trigger to fire off. He actually starts his attack, but the target moves back (i.e. resolves the readied action first) before his attack can connect.

Readied actions are weird that way.

 

[KarinsDad]

Perhaps you can define for me what 'comes into effect' means, since obviously it means something different things to me than to you.

You are assuming that "comes into effect" means that the spell is successful. Granted, that is not normally a bad assumption, but it is when there is a question on the rules.

The quoted rule:

"Most spells have a casting time of 1 standard action. A spell cast in this manner immediately takes effect."

states that the effect is immediate. No ANDS, IFS, BUTS, or MAYBES. A different rule (like AoO or Readying) can change whether the effect occurs, but that does not mean that the effect is not immediate. It is just an immediate effect that did not occur.


There are two basic ways to interpret the two rules I quoted:

1) My way. Standard actions are like atoms. They are basically indivisible. If you start one, you minimally attempt to finish it. You may be prevented from finishing it, but you at least always attempt to start what you finish.

2) Your way. Standard action have a start and an execution. If you get interrupted (whether that interruption is successful or not), then you do not need to execute the action that you started.

The problem with the second interpretation is that there are no rules to support it.

The quote:

"Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action."

does not do this. This means that IF he is capable (not if he does not decide to change his mind) he FINISHES his action(s). This is a metagaming rule describing that things like dice rolls continue, not a "what can the character decide to do" rule. If the character was planning on casting and then moving, he can decide to move (or not move or do a move equivalent) wherever he wants because the move action is a separate action which was not yet declared. The standard action spell, on the other hand, was the action that triggered the readied action and hence cannot be changed. It happened as stated (it just was not successful).

Example: Wizard casts a Melf's Acid Arrow. Fighter gets an AoO and hits. If the Wizard makes his Concentration roll, he then still rolls his ranged touch to hit for the MAA. He then still rolls his damage if he hits. This is all metagaming (i.e. rules about how the mechanics of the game is played). But, he does not get to change target from the Cleric to the Fighter. He does not get to decide to not cast the spell at all, just because the Fighter hit him in the interim. He has already cast the spell, the mechanics of that have not yet occurred. If the Wizard fails his Concentration roll, he does not get to roll to hit, but he also does not get to change his target and does not get to decide to not cast the spell. The spell is cast and the spell is lost in this case.

The success of his action is irrelevant to him performing the action.

And yes, since the rule you quoted here does not support your position, I'm still waiting for one that does.

In other words, you're interrupting action completes before his action. He began his action, and now he completes it. Otherwise, how could you interrupt it in the first place? When the action is completed, the spell is now cast, and effects are determined. The spell can't be immediately in effect until the he actually takes his action.

All standard actions are instantaneous with respect to you declaring what you are doing and it just happens. Whether it is successful or not is dependent on circumstances.

If in the "middle" of your spell, you are AoOed and fail your concentration check and lose the spell.

Do you get to do some OTHER action? No, of course not.

Your action failed, but you still DID your action. You still lost the spell because you still (unsuccessfully) cast the spell.

Starting an action is no different then completing it.


Completing an action in metagaming terms (i.e. rolling the dice to hit or for damage for something else) is different than completing an action in game terms (i.e. I do this). You do the action the instant you declare what it is, you just are not necessarily successful with it. You cannot change the action in mid-action. There are no rules that allow for that for standard actions. If you find one, let us know.