Natural Attack + Monk

[BalazarIago]

Thank you very much Patyn of ElvenShae. Your answers were clear, to the point and answered my questions. Thanks again.

 

[BalazarIago]

Oh, and not to ignore the input from everyone eles, I would like to thank everyone as well. You your right that I should be careful about openning pandora's box

 

[rowport]

• Single Attack, Standard Action
  1. Unarmed Strike, normal AB, normal Str
  2. Claw, normal AB, normal Str
  3. Bite, -5 AB, .5 Str
• Full-attack, Full-round Action
  1. Natural attacks: 2x Claw, normal AB, normal Str; Bite, -5 AB, .5 Str
  2. Monk attack: normal AB, normal Str, w/ iterative attacks
  3. Monk attack with natural attack: Monk, normal AB, normal Str, w/ iterative attacks; 2x Claw, -5 AB, .5 Str; Bite, -5 AB, .5 Str
  4. Monk Flurry: normal AB, normal Str, w/ iterative attacks

Patryn-
I agree with most everything you have said, but am unsure about the last two bullets; specifically, I thought that a Monk could add only *one* natural attack (primary only?) at -5 AB in addition to his normal attacks. Also, I thought that he could add this one primary natural attack at -5 AB even when he uses Flurry. I do not have the citation handy, so I might be remembering wrongly, but this was based on an "Ask the Sage" response in 2004.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Patryn-
I agree with most everything you have said, but am unsure about the last two bullets; specifically, I thought that a Monk could add only *one* natural attack (primary only?) at -5 AB in addition to his normal attacks.

Check the cornugon (horned devil) in the MM.

Attack: Spiked chain +25 melee (2d6+15 plus stun) or claw +24 melee (2d6+10) or tail +24 melee (2d6+10 plus infernal wound)

Full Attack: Spiked chain +25/+20/+15 melee (2d6+15 plus stun) and bite +22 melee (2d8+5) and tail +22 melee (2d6+5 plus infernal wound); or 2 claws +24 melee (2d6+10) and bite + 22 melee (2d8+5) and tail +22 melee (2d6+5 plus infernal wound)

When making a full-attack, he loses his claws (since they're holding the spiked chain) but can use both his bite attack and his tail attack.

Moreover, from here:

Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature’s description indicates otherwise and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks. These secondary attacks do not interfere with the primary attack as attacking with an off-hand weapon does, but they take the usual –5 penalty (or –2 with the Multiattack feat) for such attacks, even if the natural weapon used is normally the creature’s primary natural weapon.

I see no limitation on a single natural weapon being used as a secondary natural attack.

Given these two pieces of info, I see no rules basis to support a "One natural weapon only" reading.

Now, if the monk in question were using a quarterstaff, or holding a kama in one hand, then his ability to make claw attacks would be diminished.

Also, I thought that he could add this one primary natural attack at -5 AB even when he uses Flurry. I do not have the citation handy, so I might be remembering wrongly, but this was based on an "Ask the Sage" response in 2004.

1. Don't trust the Sage farther than you can throw him.
2. The flurry rules state that, when you are flurrying, you may only use unarmed strikes or special monk weapons. Natural weapons are not special monk weapons. Therefore, you may not use them when flurrying.

You *may* use them when making a normal full attack action, as I outlined in the table. So the monk, when he decides to Full Attack, has an additional decision to make: Full Attack with additional attacks from Natural Weapons, or Full Attack with additional attacks from Flurry.

 

[JoeStock]

1. Don't trust the Sage farther than you can throw him.
2. The flurry rules state that, when you are flurrying, you may only use unarmed strikes or special monk weapons. Natural weapons are not special monk weapons. Therefore, you may not use them when flurrying.

You *may* use them when making a normal full attack action, as I outlined in the table. So the monk, when he decides to Full Attack, has an additional decision to make: Full Attack with additional attacks from Natural Weapons, or Full Attack with additional attacks from Flurry.

Actully you can flurry with unarmed strikes, THEN add your natural weapons strikes after. That is if the race can make normal melee attacks than natural weapon attacks (like the centuar) The Sage did rule that, it's even in the official FAQ posted on the wizards site for 3.5 (Page 8). the example given in the FAQ has a 8th level centuar monk doing a total of 5 attacks while flurrying (3 unarmed, 2 natural)

Thus a race that can doing a normal attack and add natural weapons afterward, is really overpowered when you add the monk class.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Actully you can flurry with unarmed strikes, THEN add your natural weapons strikes after. That is if the race can make normal melee attacks than natural weapon attacks (like the centuar) The Sage did rule that, it's even in the official FAQ posted on the wizards site for 3.5 (Page 8).

Which is why you shouldn't trust the Sage farther than you can throw him.

Can you point to any rules which say, "Actually, the Flurry rules were just kidding. You can use things that are not unarmed strikes or special monk weapons when flurrying?"

Thus a race that can doing a normal attack and add natural weapons afterward, is really overpowered when you add the monk class.

Egads - when you break the rules, things get more powerful? Say it ain't so!

 

[Caeleddin]

Patryn - Actually, I am pretty sure that the Sage is correct in this case. The Monk's unarmed attacks are considered "manufactured" AND Monk weapons. That means you can Flurry with them. That is not the problem. The problem arises when you add TWF into the mix, because you CAN do so. Thus, a 20th level Monk will have an AB of 13/13/13/8/3 AND 13/8/3 with his unarmed strikes AND Flurry. They stack. This is very explicitly stated. Then, your "manufactured" weapons part is over and you ADD your natural attacks to it. That is another two attacks (for a Centaur) at AB 10/10.


Thus, a full attack by a Centaur Monk is:
13/13/13/8/3 at 4d8 +full Str bonus
AND 13/8/3 at 4d8 +0.5 Str boonus
AND 10/10 at 1d6 +0.5 Str bonus

This is no different from a dual wielding Cornugon in your case:
Primary hand attack
AND Off-hand attack
AND Natural attack

It is a loophole in the system, absolutely BEGGING for a House Rule.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Patryn - Actually, I am pretty sure that the Sage is correct in this case.

Whereas I'm pretty sure he's out to lunch.

The Monk's unarmed attacks are considered "manufactured" AND Monk weapons.

Strictly speaking:

A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

In other words, a monk can benefit from Magic Fang and / or Magic Weapon. This, however, has nothing to do with the matter at hand.

That means you can Flurry with them. That is not the problem.

Agreed.

The problem arises when you add TWF into the mix, because you CAN do so.

Disagreed.

Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.

 

[Caeleddin]

Patryn - Again, it was either FAQ'd or Saged. Most probably FAQ'd.

You can also read it to mean that he gains FULL Str bonus to his "off-hand" attacks WITHOUT AB penalties

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Patryn - Again, it was either FAQ'd or Saged. Most probably FAQ'd.

And, as has been demonstrated on this board many, many times, the FAQ is often not worth the bandwidth to download it.