Natural rolls attacks.

[Minigiant]

Since my family game involve small children who can't optimize at all but refuse to play premades, here's a simply rule we use.

Weapon attacks vs AC, and implement attacks vs Relfex, Fortitude, or Will; hit on a roll of 11 or higher if it is a normal defense.

All defenses are have a rank: excellent, strong, normal, weak, and terrible.

Strong defenses requires a 13 to hit and weak defenses requires a 9 to hit. Excellent defenses requires a 15 to hit and terrible defenses requires a 7 to hit.

Feats and path features that raise a defense raise defnses one tier.
A weapon attack vs NAD , the defense goes down a tier.
An implement attack vs AC, the defense goes up a tier.

AC: PCs in heavy armor or in hide armor (with the proper ability mod as one of their 2 highest mods) have AC as a strong defense. PCs is cloth armor have AC as a weak defense. Shields increase your AC defense rank by one.

Soldiers have strong AC defenses, brutes terrible, and minions weak. All other roles have normal AC defenses.

NON-AC: PC's have strong Reflex, Will, or Fortitude based on their 2 highest ability mods and weak defenses based on their lowest mod. Heavy shields increase your Reflex defense rank by one.

The strengths of monster NADs is up to the DM. Generally I go with one strong, one weak, and one normal except for minions and brutes.

Additional rules:
Character who use +3 profiiciency weapons, or start with a 18 from point buy at first level before racials adjustment grants in their attack ability treat defenses as one tier lower.


So a STR/DEX ranger in leather would be:
AC Normal
Fort Strong
Ref Strong
Will Weak (INT dumped)

but a Orbizard could be:
AC Weak (STR dumped)
Fort Weak
Ref Strong
Will Strong


Effect on game:
Characters need less optimization to work.
Easir access to feats.
No Feat taxes needed.
No rush to the next tier magic item.

What do you'll think?
It's been working. Could I run into a problem later?

 

[Ferret]

How do the feats and leveling up increase/decrease the levels for AC, and saves?

Also how do you work in having bigger gaps? Or is everyone going to be 'just terrible'? I can see at higher levels the PCs ending up with wizards who can fight well if only when facing uch lower level PCs, but I'm not sure if thats a problem.

 

[Minigiant]

Additional tiers could be added if needed.

Feats and path features that raise a defense raise the defense one tier. Level bonuses don't add to defense and attack rolls. Scale spec raises AC from strong to excellent for example.

 

[keterys]

Sounds good. Your Fort/Ref/Will for players looks a little off as described, since your Ranger for some reason got a better Will by having a good Dex. Also, both terrible and weak AC for monsters you list as a 9... I'm guessing terrible is actually a 7, in which case it seems a little mean to make all brutes terrible, but whatever really.

I'd advise ignoring the AC/defense feats entirely, since they mostly just catch up for system drift and you've already solved that.

I'd advise dropping the 'if you have an 18 up one tier thing' cause you've otherwise got a perfect opportunity to let them play whatever they want, until that point. Do fighter and rogue weapon talents (1h, 2h, daggers) up one tier, or...? Wondering if rogues get an extra +2 (+3 prof, talent) out of a dagger your way, or if the talent is wasted or...

 

[Saeviomagy]

I'd suggest watching for powers that target non-standard defenses. For instance, there's little point using piercing strike (rogue at-will) over... well... any of the other powers if it's forced to target AC. You probably want to give those powers a bonus to-hit (it seems simpler than changing the defenses of the target) or give them a damage bump somehow. Either that or ditch them entirely (but that's a lot of powers).

 

[Minigiant]

Yeah I forgot that rule.

A weapon vs NAD attack, the defense goes down a tier.
An implement vs AC, the defense goes up a tier.
Rogue and fighter talents drop the target number up 1 (to even numbers).

The 18 rule is for the rare chance someone still optimizes that high, they won't be punished.

 

[keterys]

Except you've punished everyone who _doesn't_ by making it twice as valuable as normal. Though, it occurs to me... do you mean 18 point-buy, before racial stats? And before every 4th level stat bumps? As long as it's only for a pre-racial/bump 18 I guess it's a little more acceptable.

 

[Minigiant]

Yes. 18 point buy at first level before racials adjustment grants minus to defense for all attacks that would have used that ability modifier.

 

[eriktheguy]

The system is excellent in concept. I won't bother nitpicking for mistakes since any that arise can be fixed ad hoc, I doubt that kids who cannot optimize will notice a little change anyways. Let us know how this plays out in later tiers if you ever get there. I like how your system has left room for all the little feats and other bonuses to have a real effect.