Need a statistic major's help here...

RigaMortus said:
Got into a slight tiff with a groupmate today when I tried to explain the difference between a 25% chance by rolling a 1d4 and a 25% chance by rolling 1d100.

M.A. in Mathematics and Statistics, UMaine 1995, here.

There is no difference between the 25% chance to roll 1 on a 1d4 and the 25% chance to roll 1-25 on a 1d100.

There is also no difference in using 2 d10's or 2 d20's (for old-timers) when generating your 1d100 roll. (Assuming the dice are evenly weighted and all that.)
 

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RigaMortus said:
If you roll 2d10, you have a 30% chance of a 0, 1 or 2 coming out for your first roll.

If the 0 comes out (10% chance of that happening) then you need to roll another 0 on the other die to be safe (that would be another 10% chance you have to roll for to be safe).

If the 1 comes out (another 10% chance) it won't matter what your next roll is, you will fail (so that would be equal to 0% because anything you roll will make you fail at this point 100% of the time).

If a 2 comes out (another 10% chance), then you need to roll a 6 - 9 to be safe (this is another 40% chance you have to roll in order to be safe).

I know you 'got it', but you can figure it out this way too.

First roll, 0 - 10% chance. 90% of the time that's bad. So, 9% total chance of it being bad. (.1 * .9 = .09)

First roll, 1 - 10% chance. 100% of the time that's bad. So, 10% chance of the roll being bad.

First roll, 2 - 10% chance. 60% of the time that's bad. So, 6% chance of the bad roll occuring here..

9 + 10 + 6 = 25% chance of the Bad Thing.

You want tough statistics (for a game, anyway) go look at the White Wolf die system. Eurgh.

J
not a statistician
 

Re: Re: Need a statistic major's help here...

dcollins said:

M.A. in Mathematics and Statistics, UMaine 1995, here.

Come to my arms!!1!!!

BEc (actuarial science), Macquarie, 1992
M Applied Stats, Macquarie, 1996
 


Interesting posts from the statisticians. As a semi-layman. I'm comp sci so I have more mathmatics then the common man but I'm not a mathematician.

Here is the explaination of proability that I give to my players.

Assumption: Every number on any die has an equal probability of coming up.

Fact: A specific number from adding dice is not always equally probable. (See proof A)

Assumption: Game rules take that into account and so must be followed when rolling dice that will be added together.

Fact: A specific number from reading dice sequentially, i.e. percentile, is always equally probable. (See proof B)

Ruling: Different die combinations may be substituted for die that will be read sequentially, as long as the die continue to be read sequentially or only one die is rolled. The match must be exact. For example 25% = d4, 10% = d10.

Sides - % Chance of any given side
4 - 25%
6 - 16.6%
8 - 12.5%
10 - 10%
12 - 8.3%
20 - 5%

Proof A
When we add the dice together every side on either die has an equal perctent chance to come up so the probablity of the number occuring is a function of the number of combinations that a given number has such that:
x = the desired number
{y} = the set of all number combinations that can make that number.
n = the number of combinations in y
z = the total number of possible numbers rolled.
i = the toatal numer of possible rolls.

The probablity of a given number is: n * (100/z)

For example: We will roll 2d6
Possible numbers: 2 - 12 inclusive.
Possible combinations: 6 * 6 = 36
{y} for possible numbers
Num {y(d6,d6)} (Total)
2 {1,1} (1)
3 {1,2;2,1} (2)
4 {1,3;3,1;2,2} (3)
5 {1,4;4,1;2,3;3,2;} (4)
6 {1,5;5,1;2,4;4,2;3,3} (5)
7 {1,6;6,1;2,5;5,2;3,4;4,3} (6)
8 {2,6;6,2;3,5;5,3;4,4} (5)
9 {3,6;6,3;4,5;5,4} (4)
10 {4,6;6,4;5,5} (3)
11 {5,6;6,5} (2)
12 {6,6} (1)

Check: 1+2+3+4+5+6+5+4+3+2+1 = 36
There is a 100/36 = 2.78% (rounded from .7 repeating) chance of any particular combination appearing. Below are the odds of any particular number appearing.
2 = 2.78%
3 = 5.56%
4 = 8.34%
5 = 11.11%
6 = 13.89%
7 = 16.67%
8 = 13.89%
9 = 11.11%
10 = 8.34%
11 = 5.56%
12 = 2.78%

Check: (2.78*2)+(5.56*2)+(8.34*2)+(11.11*2)+(13.89*2)+16.67 = 5.56 + 11.12 + 16.68 + 22.22 + 27.78 + 16.67 = 100.06 (acceptable error occured from rounding)

Proof B:
When we read the numbers of the die sequentially every side has the same probablity of coming up and every number combination has exactly one set that can create it. Therefor the probability of any number coming up is the same.
x = the desired number
{y} = the set of all number combinations that can make that number.
n = the number of combinations in y (1 or 2)
z = the total number of possible numbers rolled.
i = the toatal numer of possible rolls.

The probablity of a given number is: n * (100/z)

For example lets roll 2d4.
z = {11,12,13,14,21,22,23,24,31,32,33,34,41,42,43,44)

If we premark a die as the tens roller then n has one combination for each number otherwise it has two but there are duplicates that way so we will assume premarked dice.
11 {1,1}
12 {1,2}
13 {1,3}
14 {1,4}
...

So our probability function degenerates to 1 * 100/z or just 100/z so no matter what dice you use the probablity stays the same.
 

RigaMortus said:
I guess I am looking at it like this. All things being equal, if I roll a 4 sided die 4 times, a 1 should theoretically come out at least once.

If I roll a percentile 25 times, a 1 to 25 won't theoretically come out because there are more combinations to roll. I'd need to roll 76 times to ensure a 1 to 25 came out (because the first 75 rolls could be any number of 26 to 100). Again, all things being equal.

The probability of rolling a 1 on any of 4 d4s is 68.359375%.

The probability of rolling 1-25 on any of 4 d% is 68.359375%.

The probability of rolling 1-25 on any of 25 d% is 99.92474565%.

The probability of rolling 1-25 on any of 76 d% is 99.999999968036%.
 

kreynolds said:
Nah. The more I think about it, it really wasn't funny. Ah well. I'lll come up with some that's actually funny later.
Yeah, it wasn't funny in itself - but that you did something like it was sort of funny. :)
 

Well... If you want to get REALLY technical.

No dice is made absolutely perfect, and even if it was use would see an end to that. So your dice is more than likely weighted on one side.

However, considering the angles of a d100 versus a d4, it is much more likely that a small weight difference in the dice would effect a d100 more than a d4.

That could be good or bad for you depending on what you need to roll

So what do you do? When I start rolling bad, I throw my dice against the wall and curse its terrible construction. Then I move on to my next "good" dice that gives me all 20's:)

Until of course, that one starts giving me one's!!! Hey its bound to happen, all those 20's must wear out that side, and lean the weight more towards the one's!! I'm sure that's what happens, it has to be:D
 

If you want to check your die for "fairness", it's best you use chi-squared distribution. Open Office 'oocalc' has the formulas built in. I don't know if Excel does.

/ds
 

Fascinating. We are debating whether a 25% chance is really 25% if you show it as 1/4 or 25/100. No statistician required if you assume the dice are fair. I just went over fractions with my son the other day for school. Unlike many things, this actually works the way they taught you in elementary school.

I think the hang up Rig is having is that he is describing the problem all wrong. The chance of rolling a 1 on a d4 out of 4 rolls cannot be compared equally with the chance of rolling between 1-25 out of 76 rolls. For an equal comparison, you must roll the d100 100 times and the d4 four times.
 

Speaks With Stone said:
Fascinating. We are debating whether a 25% chance is really 25% if you show it as 1/4 or 25/100. No statistician required if you assume the dice are fair. I just went over fractions with my son the other day for school. Unlike many things, this actually works the way they taught you in elementary school.


True

I think the hang up Rig is having is that he is describing the problem all wrong. The chance of rolling a 1 on a d4 out of 4 rolls cannot be compared equally with the chance of rolling between 1-25 out of 76 rolls. For an equal comparison, you must roll the d100 100 times and the d4 four times.

True, sort of.

To compare, roll a d4 100 times and a d100 100 times.

For the d4, see how many times you roll a "1" (it will be around 25 or so)

For the d100, see how many time you roll a 25 or less (it will be around 25 or so).

The chance of rolling a 1 on a "fair" d4 is exactly equal to the chance of folling a 1-25 on a "fair" d100.
 

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