Need DM advice or help

[moritheil]

Oh, pffft. This is not so bad. You want to send the party after a bunch of beholders.

The elder orb, IIRC, appears with 1d10 beholders and 1d6 death tyrants, and is EL 16. Toss in a few dozen lensmen with the heal ability to keep the living beholders in top shape and act as fodder. Have the encounter take place inside the beholders' caves, where he can't assume anything larger than a Medium form.

The beholders all train their most deadly rays on 1-2 people at the same time, while bathing the rest of the group in antimagic radiation to prevent them from doing much. The group can't run, because the initial hit should kill someone, and that would mean leaving their corpse behind (well, perhaps this is less of a problem with true res, but it should at least bother them.)

Assuming they stay or are forced to stay, 1 person should die each round unless they're inordinately lucky.

This encounter is not impossible at their level, but it should at least give the party a real battle.

 

[MoonZar]

Oh, pffft. This is not so bad. You want to send the party after a bunch of beholders.

The elder orb, IIRC, appears with 1d10 beholders and 1d6 death tyrants, and is EL 16. Toss in a few dozen lensmen with the heal ability to keep the living beholders in top shape and act as fodder. Have the encounter take place inside the beholders' caves, where he can't assume anything larger than a Medium form.

The beholders all train their most deadly rays on 1-2 people at the same time, while bathing the rest of the group in antimagic radiation to prevent them from doing much. The group can't run, because the initial hit should kill someone, and that would mean leaving their corpse behind (well, perhaps this is less of a problem with true res, but it should at least bother them.)

Assuming they stay or are forced to stay, 1 person should die each round unless they're inordinately lucky.

This encounter is not impossible at their level, but it should at least give the party a real battle.

Strong monster could resolve this situation, but the dragon will survive and some of the other pc will probably die, they are obviously less stronger then the druid who shapechange in dragon.

 

[Delemental]

Check the Errata.

And, should you want to see it for yourself...

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a

The info you want is on page 2 of the PDF file.

IIRC, this correction came out pretty quickly after 3.5 was published, so it was either something they'd intended to change before printing but didn't, or something that became pretty apparent was broken very shortly.

Even if you leave the double HD in, this isn't impossible. As others have suggested, use antimagic and disjunction. The dragon's touch AC is only 2, so hitting it with touch spells shouldn't be an issue. And I disagree with an SR of 31 being 'unbeatable'; a 19th level caster with Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration can do it on a roll of 8 or better (and even without those feats you only need a 12. If you use the Complete books, there's Assay Resistance, which gives a caster a +10 bonus to penetrate SR.

And if you don't care how obvious you make it that you're gunning for the druid, use a whole squad of high-level fighters with 1 level in sorcerer so they can cast true strike on themselves, armed with keen wounding icy burst greataxes. And boots of flying, rings of greater fire resistance, and necklaces of adaptation. Backed up by a couple of clerics with Assay Resistance and Harm.

Also bear in mind that the druid/dragon retains his own hit points, though he might get more from the dragon's higher Con score. So it's unlikely that he'll have a real wyrm gold dragon's 627 hp. He also has to use his own BAB and base saves. (The spell shapechange is based off polymorph, which is in turn based off alter self. You'll find the reference to the stuff about hit points and BAB in the alter self spell description.

 

[Bladesong]

There are a few things I can think of off the top of my head.

1.) Keep in mind that the natural armor effects do not stack.

2.) Relatively low casters can increase the size and/or strength of the giants you mentioned and I recommend that one or more of them grapple the dragon while another one or two pound on him.

3.) Classed enemies are still the best challenge for a party. A high level evil ogre magi dragon slayer with a good dragon slaying weapon (and fodder for support) should be a good challenge.

4.) Swamps are great places for dead magic zones. That would DEFINITELY level the playing field.

5.) Wild magic zones could be fun too when he transforms into a swamp rat rather than a dragon.

6.) Use your imagination. With magic anything goes. Powerful one shot magic items in the hands of the enemy are always good. They can "break" the rules such as being able to automatically penetrate spell resistance.

Good luck.

 

[gizmo33]

Strong monster could resolve this situation, but the dragon will survive and some of the other pc will probably die, they are obviously less stronger then the druid who shapechange in dragon.

The 19th level druid should take a page out of Gandalf's book and go fight Saruman while he leaves the hobbits to their lower level adventures. This is a player problem as much (or more) than a DM problem. If the hobbits want to hang with Gandalf all of the time, they should probably expect to die at least once a game session.

Again though, I think the problem would be better solved in the long run by just sticking to a level of character that you feel more comfortable DMing, and making sure the XP chart only supports moderate level advancement so you have a chance to get used to powerful characters rather than just waking up one day and finding you have a 19th level character to deal with.

 

[MoonZar]

The 19th level druid should take a page out of Gandalf's book and go fight Saruman while he leaves the hobbits to their lower level adventures. This is a player problem as much (or more) than a DM problem. If the hobbits want to hang with Gandalf all of the time, they should probably expect to die at least once a game session.

Again though, I think the problem would be better solved in the long run by just sticking to a level of character that you feel more comfortable DMing, and making sure the XP chart only supports moderate level advancement so you have a chance to get used to powerful characters rather than just waking up one day and finding you have a 19th level character to deal with.

I think this could be very bad that the druid have to quit the campaign. After all this not the fault of the player, he play the rules by the book. He just saw an opportunity and took it, okay he probably abuse the situation, but i don't think he should be punish in any way.

Did you read my idea about the gold dragon ? I think he should at least try to make a agreement with the druid with npc before trying anything else.

 

[gizmo33]

I think this could be very bad that the druid have to quit the campaign. After all this not the fault of the player, he play the rules by the book. He just saw an opportunity and took it, okay he probably abuse the situation, but i don't think he should be punish in any way.

It's not anyone's fault that one character is 19th level and another is 1st. What I'm saying is that I don't recommend running a game for both groups to travel together.

Did you read my idea about the gold dragon ? I think he should at least try to make a agreement with the druid with npc before trying anything else.

Yes, I read it. From what I can tell you are suggesting that the DM metagame his way out of the situation. NPCs IMO should be played according to their own motivations and interests, not the DMs. This includes groups of gold dragons. It's possible for a group of gold dragons to have an effect on the druid's actions. But I think it's in the DM's interest to do this honestly, and decide things for the gold dragons that are in their interest. It's possible that the druid PC would strike up an agreement with the gold dragons that would allow him to use their form only vs. Chaotic Evil creatures. Then what? The DM is in the same predicament. To play the gold dragons honestly, the DM should not count on them to solve his problem.

And why would gold dragon's care about what anyone thinks anyway? Are there groups or individuals out there that are a challenge to gold dragons? So that the dragons would need to be concerned about their image? I would suggest developing the campaign world in order to answer these questions.

But the problem I see, is that if the campaign world were developed to this extent, the DM wouldn't be having this problem with the 19th level character. This has to be the last time I say this - This problem did not start suddenly when the character went from 18th to 19th level. My guess is that the DM is probably running a one-shot game, or someone's character from another campaign. The dead-magic zone idea, for example, would be obvious to anyone who had heard of Anti-Magic Shell and the like. And certainly you would have expected the DM to have tripped across that one a few times during the 19th level character's career.

 

[Greatwyrm]

Put a very important (and possibly deadly) encounter in a very small space. You really shouldn't try becoming something more than Large in a 10' tunnel.

 

[MoonZar]

It's not anyone's fault that one character is 19th level and another is 1st. What I'm saying is that I don't recommend running a game for both groups to travel together.



Yes, I read it. From what I can tell you are suggesting that the DM metagame his way out of the situation. NPCs IMO should be played according to their own motivations and interests, not the DMs. This includes groups of gold dragons. It's possible for a group of gold dragons to have an effect on the druid's actions. But I think it's in the DM's interest to do this honestly, and decide things for the gold dragons that are in their interest. It's possible that the druid PC would strike up an agreement with the gold dragons that would allow him to use their form only vs. Chaotic Evil creatures. Then what? The DM is in the same predicament. To play the gold dragons honestly, the DM should not count on them to solve his problem.

And why would gold dragon's care about what anyone thinks anyway? Are there groups or individuals out there that are a challenge to gold dragons? So that the dragons would need to be concerned about their image? I would suggest developing the campaign world in order to answer these questions.

But the problem I see, is that if the campaign world were developed to this extent, the DM wouldn't be having this problem with the 19th level character. This has to be the last time I say this - This problem did not start suddenly when the character went from 18th to 19th level. My guess is that the DM is probably running a one-shot game, or someone's character from another campaign. The dead-magic zone idea, for example, would be obvious to anyone who had heard of Anti-Magic Shell and the like. And certainly you would have expected the DM to have tripped across that one a few times during the 19th level character's career.

All your point make sense to me, however don't know exactly in wich term the druid meet the Gold dragon, only the dm could amswer this.

The only thing i don't agree is about the dragon who should not bother. I think this could bother them that some human use their form to kill everything in the sector even if this evil creature. Dragon have enormous pride, even if they are LG. If you play a character and you meet someone who's using your exact physical appearance to kill, i think you'll take action.

Anyway this true that in the first place the responsability is on the head of the dm who probably didn't think at the time when he add a encounter with a gold dragon in the campaign. I'm sure he didn't expect the druid to take advantage of this, and he'll learn experience by this situation.

I think this sad if a character must leave, for any reason. This should be the last solution according to me.

 

[gizmo33]

The only thing i don't agree is about the dragon who should not bother. I think this could bother them that some human use their form to kill everything in the sector even if this evil creature. Dragon have enormous pride, even if they are LG. If you play a character and you meet someone who's using your exact physical appearance to kill, i think you'll take action.

Ok, good point. I didn't mean to suggest that the dragons wouldn't bother, only that the DM should approach figuring out their actions based on their natures (as you say, taking into account their pride) rather than the DM deciding *first* that he wants to stop the PC from using some ability, and then having the PCs behave in such a way to achieve that result.

If there is a group of gold dragons that have noticed the PC, then why haven't a number of neutral and evil creatures done the same thing? One would assume, that since gold dragons don't rule the world, that these other groups are of equivalent power to balance out the gold dragons. So you've got all these other factions in the world that can challenge the group of gold dragons. So what's the problem with challenging the 19th level PC?

I think this sad if a character must leave, for any reason. This should be the last solution according to me.

In this case I agree with Spock: "the needs of the many outweight the needs of the one". The DM seems unprepared to have a 19th level character (and I would guess any character above 12th level) in his game. The other players do not have characters that can play appropriately with the 19th level character. No one is going to have fun except, maybe, the player of the 19th level druid, and even that's a big IF - if the player is always being singled out by groups of gold dragons and told what to do, etc. Perhaps the 19th level druid can just temporarily go on vacation until the other character's catch up to his level/power, and the DM catches up to the idea of running a higher level campaign.