Need opinions on a Fighter level 2 Utility...

[UltimaGabe]

So, I just started up a fighter in my first 4e game, and I'm absolutely loving it. I'm going for a maximum stickiness build (with some help from some online guides, mainly those found on WotC's optimization boards). Anyway, I've gotten to second level, and I need to choose my utility power. I've thought about each of them, and there's two I'm trying to decide between- Create Opening and Pass Forward (both from Martial Power).

According to the guides I've read, Pass Forward is one every fighter should pick up, and though I definitely see its uses, I think it's fairly bland. Create Opening, though, seems to fit my playstyle a bit more (as I like more ways to mark foes even on turns when I've used my actions on other things, and it'd be nice to be able to set up flanks), however, I'm afraid I may be underestimating the drawback (granting a foe a free attack against me).

Has anyone used Create Opening? If so, how did it work for you? Do any of you have any other suggestions that I haven't considered?

It'd be nice to hear some of your opinions on the fighter level 2 utilities.

 

[Nail]

FWIW, I went with Pass Foward. (Human BRV Ftr, Shield and Craghammer)

I find that - at best - I use it once per encounter. So the fact that it's an At-Will is meaningless. It's less powerful because it's an At-Will, yet it's used as an effective Encounter power.

I've found the power to be "just okay", and I would (and do) consider swapping it out for Create Openning. I'm eager to hear the thoughts of others.

 

[Gradine]

No personal experience, but it seems that Create Opening seems to fit with what you want to do best. Seems much better than the highly disappointing Get Over Here in terms of getting your allies out of harm's way.

 

[KarinsDad]

It also depends a bit on party makeup.

If you have an archer Ranger in the group or a Laser Cleric, they might get a little overwhelmed if they get surrounded. Having a way to get them out of the fray without them taking an OA and you take it instead might be helpful.

But, I do think that Create Opening is pretty situational unless you have the proper party makeup. The mark does not do much more than a normal mark and shifting an ally for a flank is nice, but a +2 to hit (you hit 10% more) due to flank does not make up for a -2 to hit attack against you (typically, at least 30% or 40% to hit the Fighter).


I think I would use Pass Forward a lot more, but I like movement flexible PCs. Pass Forward allows the Fighter to flank nearly as easily as Create Opening, but without the downsides.

 

[Goumindong]

My opinions not having played a fighter yet, but having played a wizard and DMing for a Paladin.

1. Create opening: Giving the enemies free attacks against you in exchange for anything other than free attacks against them is pretty bad. It can be useful against minions and enemies with weak melee attacks, but i think that that is going to happen pretty rarely. Even though you're giving an enemy an ability to hit you in order to do it, you could instead mark them and then punish them for attacking your friend.

That being said, it can be very useful to get your friend out of danger in a tricky situation for the price of only one attack. But hopefully with a sticky fighter you won't be in those situations.

Pass Forward is not that great, it only prevents OA's from that enemy, so you need to only have one enemy near him to not eat any OAs from the movement and while it does reduce them, its only one.

Shield Push and Footwork lure are just as likely to generate flanks as Pass Forward and while Passforward will do it while putting you between the rest of the enemies and your allies they're not going to cooperate much more after a single instance of it working.

That being said it does have some interesting applications.

Suppose that you wanted to avoid a charge from an enemy and then surround him.

Well, ready a pass forward for when the enemy enters a square adjacent to you. The charge triggers it (but before he attacks), you then move around him and suddenly he is no longer in the "closest square to you from the origin of the charge" and probably cannot make it there without provoking and having his movement stopped.

You've avoided the charge attack and move yourself in front of him allowing your friends to move in behind and flank while you run interference for the rest of the party. Is readying an attack action better? Might be. Might not be.

That being said, i am still probably going to recommend one of the daily utilities, especially until you get to a time when you have more daily stances to use. Boundless endurance can really end up being a lot of healing, it lasts the entire encounter, doesn't turn off when you're no longer bloodied and doesn't turn off when you're unconscious(it won't heal you in those situations, but it won't turn off).

If you get it for 2 rounds its almost better than Unstoppable(assuming 14 Con). If you don't have that then Unstoppable is probably better. But even then, either of them are quite good as its healing that doesn't burn a healing surge. And, assuming you're as sticky as you want to be, you're going to need healing.

 

[Mr. Wilson]

I actually prefer Boundless Endurance as well and used that when I played my fighter (Bastard Sword/Shield build).

 

[eamon]

I'm also playing a low-level shield+board fighter with Tide of Iron and Footwork Lure, and I find Pass Forward pretty unattractive. It just doesn't happen that often that you need to maneuver around an adjacent enemy while not provoking OA's from other enemies and such that a shift wouldn't serve just as well.

Often, a shift is just as good (and it protects from all OA's - not just one), and the few times that you do want this, you can just provoke an OA - they're not actually that deadly, and you're the one choosing whether it's acceptable. Finally, it's probably somewhat party dependant, but generally there are other movement powers out there which make Pass Forward a bit redundant - Tide of Iron and Footwork Lure to start with, but also things like Wolf Pack Tactics or whatever your allies may have.

I picked shielded sides, which is also rather situational. I've tried Defensive stance, and while it's very good, it's daily, and the slow effect is quite annoying. Additionally, it'll be competing with other stances eventually. If you've got the Con, Boundless endurance is very very good.

I'm not so sure about Create Opening. Letting your allies shift is nice, but it's hefty price to pay, and the marking effect means you can't play a game of tag with a second defender (which is a lot of fun), i.e. you can't goad the enemy into violating a mark since any mark would have been overwritten.

 

[Engilbrand]

I use Pass Forward a few times per combat. I used it in our last game to set the Rogue up for a flank. When I did it, he got a big smile on his face and eviscerated the enemy. It was good times. You can't go wrong with an extra At-Will.

 

[keterys]

I took Pass Forward on my fighter as my 3rd or so retrain of my utility 2. It's not going to change the world, but eh.

 

[Nail]

I'm also playing a low-level shield+board fighter with Tide of Iron and Footwork Lure, and I find Pass Forward pretty unattractive.

That's a pretty good set of At-Wills. Given your PC's ability to push and slide Bad Guys, I can't see much of a reason to take Pass Forward.

That said, if your fighter had other At-Wills, such that you weren't already moving the enemy around, Pass Forward becomes valuable. And since Pass Forward is a Move action, so you don't need to use a particular Standard Action attack in order to flank an enemy.

Last combat, I used Pass Foward to flank the Solo -- really, that's just about the ideal set up for that power (Thanks, DrSpunj!). Another great use is went one soldier is guarding a controller behind the front line.

In other combats, I've noticed that Pass Forward is essentially a "Shift 2" power. (Moving around the the back of a medium-sized enemy requires just two squares of movement.)