Need opinions on a Fighter level 2 Utility...

[keterys]

Actually, Tide of Iron and Footwork Lures are synergistic - that is, they increase the usefulness, not decrease it - with Pass Forward... you use Pass Forward to move to a good spot, then use them.

 

[Nail]

Actually, Tide of Iron and Footwork Lures are synergistic - that is, they increase the usefulness, not decrease it - with Pass Forward.

Hmmmm.

I'd have to see a (somewhat common) example of that to believe it.

 

[keterys]

It's certainly true if you only have one of the two powers - if you have both it's less common with medium enemies, but not that hard with Large ones, but basically any time whatsoever you want to move an enemy into a specific spot.

Such as pass forward 4 squares to a Large enemy's far corner and footwork lure it away from someone you're guarding while simultaneously setting up flank for someone else and making it easier for you to close with the backline artillery and controller.

Also good for setting up your enemies into AoE formations - move two around one enemy to footwork lure a different enemy adjacent.

It's a lot more useful past low heroic when Larges become increasingly more common, though, I'd imagine.

 

[Obryn]

Hmmmm.

I'd have to see a (somewhat common) example of that to believe it.

I think I see exactly where he's coming from. Tide of Iron and Footwork Lure are great, but are kinda limited in that you can really only work them from one of 3 squares around the target.

If you use Pass Forward, you could work them from just about any square around the target, so your options of where to pull/push them are greatly improved.

-O

 

[Nail]

I think I see exactly where he's coming from. Tide of Iron and Footwork Lure are great, but are kinda limited in that you can really only work them from one of 3 squares around the target.

If you use Pass Forward, you could work them from just about any square around the target, so your options of where to pull/push them are greatly improved.

-O

Ah!

Got it - thanks!

In the games I play, position doesn't mean as much as I thought it would (pre-4e release). It seems like a lot of time we're just walking up to the enemy and pounding on them until they're dead. Thus all of the fighter "move 'em!" powers seem pretty luke-warm. I wish I could see other games in action to compare play-styles.

 

[keterys]

Ah, that's... kinda unfortunate, really. That's one of the things I love about my fighter and warlord, moving stuff around (enemies or allies, respectively).

 

[Nail]

Ah, that's... kinda unfortunate, really.

Yup.

Interestingly, I - too - play a warlord in one game and a fighter in another. Not a heck of a lot of movement in either game, I think.

For example, last game (I play a human BRV Ftr 4, Craghammer and Shield), we were jumped by a group of goblins. I quickly moved (via Pass Forward) to flank a Blackblade. "Great!", I thought, "Now we'll make mincemeat of this twerp...."

...that's when the Big Bad Solo Monster showed up and hit us all with a Blast 5, which killed the Blackblade. After that it was just us surrounding the BBSM(tm) and exchanging blows until it went down, ~7 rounds later.

Now: Mayhap my perspective is inaccurate. Maybe movement was key to all of that, and I just missed it. <shrug>

 

[Obryn]

...that's when the Big Bad Solo Monster showed up and hit us all with a Blast 5, which killed the Blackblade. After that it was just us surrounding the BBSM(tm) and exchanging blows until it went down, ~7 rounds later.

Now: Mayhap my perspective is inaccurate. Maybe movement was key to all of that, and I just missed it. <shrug>

Elites and Solos often have a lot less movement than other battles, so it's probably not the best example.

For some creatures, the optimal tactic really IS to just surround them and hit them until they're dead.

-O

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I'm also playing a low-level shield+board fighter with Tide of Iron and Footwork Lure, and I find Pass Forward pretty unattractive. It just doesn't happen that often that you need to maneuver around an adjacent enemy while not provoking OA's from other enemies and such that a shift wouldn't serve just as well.

Often, a shift is just as good (and it protects from all OA's - not just one), and the few times that you do want this, you can just provoke an OA - they're not actually that deadly, and you're the one choosing whether it's acceptable. Finally, it's probably somewhat party dependant, but generally there are other movement powers out there which make Pass Forward a bit redundant - Tide of Iron and Footwork Lure to start with, but also things like Wolf Pack Tactics or whatever your allies may have.

I picked shielded sides, which is also rather situational. I've tried Defensive stance, and while it's very good, it's daily, and the slow effect is quite annoying. Additionally, it'll be competing with other stances eventually. If you've got the Con, Boundless endurance is very very good.

Shielded Sides is +2 to AC and Reflex Defense when wielding a shield, right? I personally like that one.
"Come and Get it" -> Action Point -> *insert other close burst power which name I forgot" -> Oops, now I am surrounded by several foes that are pretty annoyed about what I just did to them -> Shielded Sides.

(Of course, the "double close burst power with action point use" might actually not the optimal approach, since you probably could have marked your foes for two instead of one round if you'd use the powers over two rounds. But it's just so satisfying, moving enemies into position and then striking them again...

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Ah!

Got it - thanks!

In the games I play, position doesn't mean as much as I thought it would (pre-4e release). It seems like a lot of time we're just walking up to the enemy and pounding on them until they're dead. Thus all of the fighter "move 'em!" powers seem pretty luke-warm. I wish I could see other games in action to compare play-styles.

Lets say a pretty common situation is fighting someone blocking a doorway. You could Tide of Iron them out of the doorway, then use your pass forward to run around to the opposite side of them freeing up some more space for a fellow party member to get into the room on the same turn.

I have used Pass Forward a LOT of times, always positioning myself closest to the next target I want to engage when my current foe goes down.

DS