Nerfing the Characters

[doghead]

Hey U_A. Thanks for moving this across to the right forum.

I understand how trolls (as most other things) can be made more challenging. I suppose that what I am working with here is the idea that a human is not going to get to the point where they can take on a bog standard troll without difficulty. In WHFRP, this is expressed through the racial limits. A character/creature can only get so powerful/tough through natural progression. Beyond that, it requires something else to get better. A DnD fighter can continue to improve til he could, without magic, take down that troll without too much bother. Hence the slight adjustment to make a setting in which that outcome would be far less common.

Please don't get me wrong. I've been playing 3E and 3.5 for about a year now. I think that its a good game. One of its strengths is being able to handle the most amazingly powerful characters.

I also understand that some (most?) players would not want to play what I am contemplating. I wasn't planning to force it on anyone. It is really just an alternative for players interested having a go at slogging it out as one of the little guys. And truth be told, as a DM, I am more comfortable paddling around in the shallow end. It will be, hopefully, fun for all who want in.

 

[Darklone]

I know what you mean. That's why I stuck to low level games most of the times.

 

[RuminDange]

Give a troll a few levels in barbarian or Ranger and watch the PC's run or die.
I nearly killed a 33rd lvl Fighter/Sorcerer/Bladesinger with 4 trolls with 4 levels of barbarian with the leader having 4 levels in ranger as well. He dropped 2 of the trolls (not dead just too much damage) and was about to go down himself with about 5% of hit points remaining if another PC hadn't come to his aid. Both the player and the trolls survived.
Trolls or any creatures only become a non-threat if you let them. If you don't increase some of them to higher levels as you go they become boring or easy kills. But remember once they are 8 level below the party level they get no exp anyway unless you ad hoc it.

RD

 

[Coredump]

The NPC classes are close enough, I wouldn't worry about rolling for them. you may want to give some flavor changes like Darklone suggests. And maybe give the commoner some stat plusses...whatever.

For the game play:

Do a search for Grim n gritty rules. I think you will like them a lot. Does a lot of what you are thinking about.

I give about 1/2 normal XP, but also give a little extra for bonuses. So they tend to get it about 60-65% of the normal rate. Lets the story line develop a bit.

If you want less magic, say that only every other level can be a caster.


So, if a 2nd level fighter is afraid of a troll, and a 12th level fighter is afraid of a troll, what is there to distinguish between the two fighters? I mean, people have to get better somehow...

 

[Coredump]

need a delete button for double posts...

 

[BSF]

Hmm, seriously it sounds like you might want to look at other systems out there. A Fantasy Hero setting with low point-buy might work better for you. Even with the NPC classes, a warrior will eventually become competent enough to seriously threaten a stock troll. All you are doing is slowing down that advancement.

Otherwise, keep some of the base d20 mechanics, but replace a few key components. The Grim-and-Gritty rules might help here.

 

[AeroDm]

In my experience, rather limited i suppose, low-level games aren't made by rule changes but rather broken by them.

The most common problem I've seen in 'low-powered' games is that people see a flavor and try to emulate it with rules. The grim-n-gritty earn everything you have mentality is awesome and is, imo, the best genre to play. However, by simply cutting all of the power out of your characters you actually place a huge burden on yourself, the DM.

Low level characters are easy to kill. Weakened low level characters are easier to kill.

Monsters are often what makes dnd interesting, and thus the progression through the mosnter hierarchy is a sort of reward for players. If you keep them on goblins too long they will become annoyed, your game will be stagnant, and it will fail. You'll end up continuing through the monster hierarchy until your weakened players die.

It is far easier to simply grant treasure with a steady hand, use description, and perhaps institute a FEW rules the instill fear. For instance, and this is only an instance, the Vita/Wounds system makes every combat frightening and when that troll critically rends... the player is dead.

Finally- look at what some of your changes will do. By forcing people to take npc classes, the likelihood of them taking certain PC classes diminishes. If I get stuck with commoner I will never go rogue because you took away 24 of my skill points. Bard and Ranger are equally unlikely. The barbarians auto 12 hp now becomes d12. All casters are a level behind while fighter types can still have max BAB.

There are a lot of implications that I don't think have even been considered, much less adressed

 

[doghead]

Thanks everyone for your input. It has been really helpful in spotting potential problems before they arise and being better prepared to deal with them.

Grim and Gritty. OK I'll take a look. It is a thread on these boards or something elsewhere on the web?

Hey RuminDange, glad to hear that the player survived

AeroDm. What I about with this is more a change in perspective rather than a change in the rules. Let me explain. I have been considering how to allow for the relative "fragility" of the characters. (While I believe that death should be a possibilty for the characters, I don't want them dropping like flies. No fun in that.) I tossed around a couple of ideas, but eventually rejected that approach because any rule change is going to cause a cascade of effects. So I am going to have to be careful. But now I feel better prepared thanks to having been called on it here.

I also agree that the monsters make dnd interesting. I love the monster races, but there are plenty of them within the range I am looking at. And giants and dragons are still an option. Hmmm, yeah, got to get a dragon into the story somewhere. Then there are the NPC characters. All in all, I think that there are plenty of monsters and plenty of variety available. To be honest, I have never found the "101 New Monsters" Dungeon that interesting. A new one here and there just to keep players on their toes.

Finally- look at what some of your changes will do. By forcing people to take npc classes, the likelihood of them taking certain PC classes diminishes. If I get stuck with commoner I will never go rogue because you took away 24 of my skill points. Bard and Ranger are equally unlikely. The barbarians auto 12 hp now becomes d12. All casters are a level behind while fighter types can still have max BAB.

I think that in this lies the essential difference between us here. This is number crunching, and I would rather not play this way. (Some people do and thats cool, and I have and have had fun doing it but in general I prefer not to. Its just a question of personal style.) Ironically, I came to this idea because I found myself doing just that - regreting generation choices made to fit the background and concept. "If I had just taken A rather than B I could have got a synergy here, or had the prereq. for that feat a few levels earlier." So my Ogre Druid will take a level of expert class to reflect his trial year before his master agreed to teach him.

cheers all

the head of the dog.

 

[Zad]

On a pure gut level, I don't think this is going to work out the way you want.

Even if you nerf them at the start, eventually they will become powerful enough that the troll is not a threat. Your options are to stop running the game with those characters (and start with new ones) or to advance the troll.

Now if you know that you're going to hit that wall eventually, nerfing the PC's will only forestall it - it won't prevent it. You could accomplish the same thing by keeping the PC's the same, and just awarding XP much much slower. This leaves you in the same rules framework and still gives you more time in the fragile beginning. (Make sure you lower the gold intake as well or you have a new problem.)

I'm inclined to echo some of the advice given earlier - D&D isn't really designed to give you this kind of feel. Another rule system might better fit what you have in mind.

 

[Thomas Hobbes]

You, my friend, need Grim n' Gritty. I (heart) that ruleset. It neatly solves the problem of, for example, a high-level fighter being able to slay a troll or horde of warrior 1's singlehandedly.

Latest copy attached, 'cause Googling didn't turn it up.

edit: hmm. That didn't work. Will try google again.

edit 2: It appears that the site that used to host it is gone. Will try this newfangled "attachment" process again.