Unearthed Arcana New Barbarian Primal Paths in November 7th Unearthed Arcana

The new paths are

• Path of the Ancestral Guardian
• Path of the Storm Herald
• Path of the Zealot

 

[Tony Vargas]

And my counterpoint is basically the same: the purpose of the Barbarian class (or any class) is first and foremost to be a story, a fictional archetype, a kind of character. That's the major reason you even HAVE classes in your game - to create packages of mechanics to support a particular character type.

To be fair, the major, foremost, overriding, insuperable, reason that you have classes in your game, when your game is D&D, is that D&D has always had classes.

And, while that was true of every edition, even the most arguably-revolutionary, it is exceptionally true of 5e, which tries so very hard (and successfully!) to evoke the classic game.

So if your new barbarian subclass isn't first and foremost a barbarian, it's not supporting that narrative. It needs to find a different home. If it needs to bring Rage with it, that's fine.

There's been noises from Mike about maybe slipping the Shaman in under the Artificer. Those would seem to be two very different narratives, probably justified by similar function & mechanics. The UA non-spellcasting Ranger and Favored Soul would also seem to have very different narratives from their parent class. Similarly, the EK, AT and Way of the Open Hand each seem to be notably different in narrative from the other sub-classes under the same class.

So, no, I don't find that idea compelling.

5e classes seem to focus on distinctiveness supported by mechanics, and have quite a bit of room for different narratives. The Bladesinger and EK might have more in common with eachother's narratives than with an Abjurer or Champion, but they're not grouped under a 'gish' class, one is a Wizard tradition like the Abjurer, the the other a fighter archetype like the Champion.

I fundamentally disagree. It's not that the purpose of classes is to realise game mechanics which support someone else's fluff!

It's that the game mechanics are there to weave your own fluff around!

Mechanics in 5e differentiate classes beyond just fluff. You might be able to re-fluff them a bit, but the fluff, the traditional concept of the class, & the mechanics are all used to differentiate one class from another. Re-fluffing is more an option for a player than re-imagining the class's traditions or changing it's mechanics, but it's a decidedly constrained option.

To really get maximum flexibility the player and DM would have to work together - the player articulating the concept he's working for, and the DM tweaking the mechanics to support a reasonable version of that fluff that works within the context of his campaign.

 

[BookBarbarian]

You play a barbarian to be a barbarian,

Absolutely true, but what does barbarian actually mean? A lot of what I would have called a Barbarian's narrative has been extracted into the Outlander Background. Heck, A Fighter with the Outlander background makes a very similar Narrative to most Barbarians, So what actually set's it apart?

A lot of people would answer "Rage" maybe with Unarmored defense added to it, but I think that is to narrow. Some might answer Tribal Warrior and while that certainly accounts for a lot of Archetypal Barbarians you do run into the Outlander Problem I highlighted above.

I guess everyone with have a slightly different answer as to what a Barbarian is. And yours obviously doesn't have to answer mine, but I'll give mine anyway.

A fighter learns how to fight typically through a discipline, as part of an army, or perhaps trained under a mentor. So, for lack of a better word I will call the source of the Fighter's fighting abilities "Training"

For me the source of the Barbarian's power does not come from Training or Discipline. It come's from another source. The Berserker's comes strictly from Rage/Frenzy/Fury. They get Mad ergo they get Strong and Tough. The Battlerager is essentially the same. The Totem Warrior comes from a Natural source. An actual connection to the spirit's of nature. So a Totem Warrior's rage is not just anger. It's channeling something akin to a wild animals survival instinct. Added to these we now have Ancestral Spirits and Elemental spirits (or the elements themselves) which would be fairly similar to the Totem Warrior.

I don't see how the Zealot drawing power from a deity is all that different than one drawing power from the elements, animal, or ancestral spirits. They all are Non Trained, Non Disciplined Fighters, just with an external power source that somehow mixes with their Natural abilities.

Ultimately I think that I like that it's not a Paladin or a Cleric for the exact reason you dislike it. A Paladin or Cleric version of Holy Fury or Divine Frenzy Warrior wouldn't suit the narrative I'm trying to create with a Zealot. My Zealot holds to no External Oath. He doesn't even need to worship a God because he has been touched by one (similar to a Favored Soul I suppose).

 

[Parmandur]

You play a barbarian to be a barbarian, not to be anything else. There are other classes for those other things that you might want to be. If this zealot isn't actually a barbarian first and foremost, it should belong to one of those other classes.

So, I look at Class/subclass as a hylomorphic compound: Class provides the matter, subclass the form (Archetype, yeah?). The Class is primarily a mechanical chassis, and subclass provides the full narrative: the three Sorcerer subclasses, for example tell very different stories, but share the mechanical core of "full caster, metamagic."

 

[I'm A Banana]

I fundamentally disagree. It's not that the purpose of classes is to realise game mechanics which support someone else's fluff!

It's that the game mechanics are there to weave your own fluff around!

I entirely disagree. If you go and read the base Barbarian mechanics, they are completely sterile beyond "raging dangerous combatant".

The UA non-spellcasting Ranger and Favored Soul would also seem to have very different narratives from their parent class. Similarly, the EK, AT and Way of the Open Hand each seem to be notably different in narrative from the other sub-classes under the same class.

I can disagree in specifics, but it seems like there's a more fundamental divide in what the function of a class is or should be.

I'll throw my perspective in with the 5e PHB:

Class shapes the way you think about the world and interact with it and your relationship with other people and powers in the multiverse.

So being a barbarian should affect the way you think about the world and how you relate to the people and powers in it.

So if the Zealot and every other barbarian are different here, the zealot, IMO shouldn't be under the Barbarian class.

As presented in this article, they are pretty different.

I think if you want to argue that a class shouldn't include this element, that's a fair stance to take, and we can talk about the merits and deficiencies of that stance, but it doesn't seem to be the stance that 5e is taking.

 

[Jester David]

Barbarian Thoughts


In general, that's a lot of magic. It might be nice to have another mundane barbarian option, but I imagine that's the berzerker.


Ancient Guardians. This is a pretty cool idea. Ancestor worship is a trope for barbarian tribes, and you can imagine the spirits of the dead assisting the champion of the tribe. The story works.
And the role of the subclass is also tight: it's the defender barbarian. It's a little less durable than the bear totem, but it's sticky and can assist its allies.
I enjoy the flavour power of consulting with the spirits at 10th level. It's a neat little power that really works with the story of the subclass, and makes this more than "just the barbarian that tanks".


Storm Herald. The aura barbarian. Funky. I suppose it's a good nature-based option. It works.
The differences in damage and effect at 3rd level between desert, sea, and thundra seem unnecessary. I'd have the effect the same and just change damage type based on type (like the dragon sorcerer). A swamp version with poison would be nice as well. 2 + (barb level/4) is also annoying. Just make it 2 damage and increase at higher levels (like the lightning version). Maybe 1d4 + ½ proficiency. Or bumped to 2d4 at level 8 and 3d4 at level 16.


Zealot. Initially odd. My first thought was they were mashing up barbarian with the divine (like they also did with wizards). A holy barbarian rather than nature/druid one. But it works, especially with Forgotten Realms. Wulfgar in the Drizzt novels is found of crying "Tempus!" Following the war god or barbarian god works, as would orc deities (which they're really trying to push to differentiate D&D's orcs). I can also totally envision this as a Spartan.
Being able to be restored to life for "free" is pretty awesome. On paper. In practice, a player could just bring in "Bob the Berzerker the #th" after each death. So it's not that dramatic. Great for organized play though.
Other than the radiant damage in the first power, this path could be flavoured nicely as either magical or nonmagical (a Thaneborn type build). I'd rework the 3rd level option for that reason. Do double duty with one subclass.
I love the ability to just stay alive while raging but die when you calm down. (On paper anyway. See below.) That's iconically barbarian. I'd almost prefer to get a weaker version sooner (stay upright but drop & die after 3 failed saves) and then have the high level version be a buff.
RAW it's actually not that impressive, since each hit is still a failed death save; because you're fighting and more likely to be taking hits, you're typically going to "die" in under a round. The power should really be called "Dead Man Walking". And you can't *choose* to use it like so many other powers. You just don't go down.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

One thing I am hoping for in the Big Book of Crunch is a little more cross pollination. Classes tend to have an implied power source (to borrow from 4e), (and in this I am sympathetic to I'm a Banana that the barbarian has often had the "nature" power source, although only the totem barbarian and the storm herald one are overtly "nature" powered) but subclasses often bring a little bit of power source B into classes with source A. Arcane and muscle/skill/martial have successfully moved into most classes (either as the class power source or the subclass supplemental power source). Nature has a good reach (but still more to go, viva la Primal Spirit patron warlock!), and divine has started to move into other areas (the zealot and the theurge) but again with more room to go (viva la holy rogue!), and psychic/mystic (understandably) hasn't stretched out at all (although the GOOpact warlock and the knowledge domain cleric are both pretty psychic, viva la mystic sorcerer! Sorcery points, psychic points, and spell points, it is all gone crazy----sorry, got carried away).

 

[Jester David]

Not one, not two, but three new archesubclasses.

And they are doing this column every week now.

This has big implications.

11 classes. That's a lot to cover and feedback on.
Even one a week that will take us to February. Assuming Christmas and New Years don't derail things. Which they will. So likely mid-Feb.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

11 classes. That's a lot to cover and feedback on.
Even one a week that will take us to February. Assuming Christmas and New Years don't derail things. Which they will. So likely mid-Feb.

Assuming a Nov 2017 release date, that might be a little tight unless they are pretty comfortable with the subclasses. The ranger might actually be done, so that would be 1 less class

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

I think that deciding that a character needs to have proficiency in Religion to know the basics of his own religion is a tad overly harsh. I think a basic knowledge of the tenets of the deity that you follow is acceptable for a devout believer without being also versed in defences against vampires and the comparative theology of alternative religions.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

11 classes. That's a lot to cover and feedback on.
Even one a week that will take us to February. Assuming Christmas and New Years don't derail things. Which they will. So likely mid-Feb.

Also remember there's been previous UAs with the Blade and Jester Bards, Undying Light Warlock, Shadow Sorcerer, Cavalier, Scout and Monster Hunter Fighters, and Inquisitive Rogue. While some of those might get updated again for the coming weeks, I think for some of them they already got their feedback.