D&D (2024) New Constructs, Plants, Beasts & Humanoids | 2024 Monster Manual | D&D

[Demetrios1453]

So let's start with Drow:

Add Dancing Lights, Faerie Fire, and Darkness to an NPC statblock.
Faerie Fire gives advantage to you and all allies.
Darkness gives advantage to attack and disadvantage for them to attack.

Alteration to AC, attack bonus, and damage or not?

I'd say yes, it definitely has an impact on CR. Do you disagree?

Now Orc:

Adrenaline Rush: You can take the Dash action as a Bonus Action. When you do so, you gain a number of Temporary Hit Points equal to your Proficiency Bonus.

Relentless Endurance (1xday): When you are reduced to 0 Hit Points but not killed outright, you can drop to 1 Hit Point instead.

Adrenaline Rush: alters hit points
Relentless Endurance: Alters hit points, essentially allows you to live an extra turn.

I'd say yes, there definitely have an impact on CR. Do you disagree?

Assuming you either agree both alter CR, or at least you can see why some would think it might alter CR, can we now address the post I made to begin with which is IT WOULD BE NICE IF THEY INCLUDED THEM TO KNOW WHAT THE CR ALTERATION IS OR IS NOT AND THIS IS NOT IN FACT THE "PERFECT" WAY TO DO IT?

To both of your "Do you disagree?", I'll say "yes". I don't believe that's enough to alter CR. Mainly because other species get perks as well that makes it a wash in the end. Halfling luck? Other elves' spells?

And Jeremy Crawford, as another poster has stated, agrees.

 

[Selas]

So let's start with Drow:

Add Dancing Lights, Faerie Fire, and Darkness to an NPC statblock.
Faerie Fire gives advantage to you and all allies.
Darkness gives advantage to attack and disadvantage for them to attack.

Alteration to AC, attack bonus, and damage or not?

I'd say yes, it definitely has an impact on CR. Do you disagree?

Now Orc:

Adrenaline Rush: You can take the Dash action as a Bonus Action. When you do so, you gain a number of Temporary Hit Points equal to your Proficiency Bonus.

Relentless Endurance (1xday): When you are reduced to 0 Hit Points but not killed outright, you can drop to 1 Hit Point instead.

Adrenaline Rush: alters hit points
Relentless Endurance: Alters hit points, essentially allows you to live an extra turn.

I'd say yes, there definitely have an impact on CR. Do you disagree?

Assuming you either agree both alter CR, or at least you can see why some would think it might alter CR, can we now address the post I made to begin with which is IT WOULD BE NICE IF THEY INCLUDED THEM TO KNOW WHAT THE CR ALTERATION IS OR IS NOT AND THIS IS NOT IN FACT THE "PERFECT" WAY TO DO IT?

Does it? A Drow is a CR 1/4 creature, and the conversion is the Priest Acolyte, a CR 1/4 creature. Adding Dancing Lights and Darkness makes absolutely no change when it can already cast Bless, except give it more options.

Do the same for the Orc vs Tough and you get similar results if you add Adrenaline Rush; so no, IMO there's no issue with adding these traits and WotC straight up says so in this video

 

[pukunui]

So let's start with Drow:

Add Dancing Lights, Faerie Fire, and Darkness to an NPC statblock.
Faerie Fire gives advantage to you and all allies.
Darkness gives advantage to attack and disadvantage for them to attack.

Alteration to AC, attack bonus, and damage or not?

I'd say yes, it definitely has an impact on CR. Do you disagree?

Yes, I disagree. Advantage doesn't provide enough of an alteration to affect CR. (Going by the 2014 monster creation rules, a monster trait that grants advantage, such as the doppelganger's Ambusher trait, only increases its effective attack bonus by 1. Most of the time that's not going to be enough to affect its CR.)

Now Orc:

Adrenaline Rush: You can take the Dash action as a Bonus Action. When you do so, you gain a number of Temporary Hit Points equal to your Proficiency Bonus.

Relentless Endurance (1xday): When you are reduced to 0 Hit Points but not killed outright, you can drop to 1 Hit Point instead.

Adrenaline Rush: alters hit points
Relentless Endurance: Alters hit points, essentially allows you to live an extra turn.

I'd say yes, there definitely have an impact on CR. Do you disagree?

Yes, I disagree.

Aggressive only increased a 2014 orc's damage output by 2. That's not enough of an increase to affect CR in most cases. The THP provided by the new Adrenaline Rush is only going to be between 2 and 6. That's not generally going to have enough of an impact to alter the CR either.

According to the 2014 monster creation rules, traits like Relentless Endurance and Undead Fortitude increase the creature's effective HP by an increasing amount depending on its CR. For the most part, those increases aren't going to be enough to affect the CR.


Therefore, I conclude that in the vast majority of cases, adding 2024 species traits to a generic humanoid stat block in the new MM isn't going to provide enough of an impact to affect its CR.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

The Drider has this bonus action which you could add to an NPC along with Darkvision and Fey Ancestry to make a Drow

Magic of the Spider Queen (Recharge 5–6). The drider casts Darkness, Faerie Fire, or Web, requiring no Material components and using Wisdom as the spellcasting ability (spell save DC 14).

 

[Mistwell]

To both of your "Do you disagree?", I'll say "yes". I don't believe that's enough to alter CR. Mainly because other species get perks as well that makes it a wash in the end. Halfling luck? Other elves' spells?

And Jeremy Crawford, as another poster has stated, agrees.

Other species getting perks is not, in any way, an answer to the question. You're intended to use that NPC block as-is without adding in species traits at that CR. Adding species traits which alter things about AC, Attack, Damage, and Hit Points according to the DMG may in fact alter CR. And people keep disagreeing about that and by how much, which is proof positive they should have provided guidelines for how to do this.

Crawford 100% did not "agree" with you view that it's a non-issue.

Man, people are really not willing to be straight about this topic.

 

[Mistwell]

Does it? A Drow is a CR 1/4 creature

A drow is not listed as a creature in the MM or elsewhere in 2024, so far.

, and the conversion is the Priest Acolyte, a CR 1/4 creature.

No, it's whatever NPC block you choose for the species in that moment. Crawford made that darn clear. Drow Pirate is supposed to be an option. Adding species traits according to DMG is supposed to be an option. Guidelines for CR changes are in the DMG but DO NOT COVER THESE KINDS OF SPECIES TRAITS.

Adding Dancing Lights and Darkness makes absolutely no change when it can already cast Bless, except give it more options.

Weird that you excluded Faerie Fire given I only mentioned Faerie Fire and Darkness. And the Pirate, which is the NPC block I mentioned as my Drow, cannot cast either.

Do the same for the Orc vs Tough and you get similar results if you add Adrenaline Rush; so no, IMO there's no issue with adding these traits and WotC straight up says so in this video

No, you do not. You're not REPLACING existing NPC blocks, you're ADDING species traits to an existing NPC block. Nothing in the rules says or implies replace. And WOTC does not straight up say that in the video. They just generally claim "you just do it" but they do not address the specific CR issues involved.

 

[Mistwell]

Yes, I disagree. Advantage doesn't provide enough of an alteration to affect CR. (Going by the 2014 monster creation rules, a monster trait that grants advantage, such as the doppelganger's Ambusher trait, only increases its effective attack bonus by 1. Most of the time that's not going to be enough to affect its CR.)


Yes, I disagree.

Aggressive only increased a 2014 orc's damage output by 2. That's not enough of an increase to affect CR in most cases. The THP provided by the new Adrenaline Rush is only going to be between 2 and 6. That's not generally going to have enough of an impact to alter the CR either.

According to the 2014 monster creation rules, traits like Relentless Endurance and Undead Fortitude increase the creature's effective HP by an increasing amount depending on its CR. For the most part, those increases aren't going to be enough to affect the CR.


Therefore, I conclude that in the vast majority of cases, adding 2024 species traits to a generic humanoid stat block in the new MM isn't going to provide enough of an impact to affect its CR.

And I disagree. And the DMG guidelines seem to say it might or might not impact CR.

Which is why I say they should have added guidelines for this. Even if it's to agree with you, a single friggen sentence guideline in either the DMG or the MM was in order for these two very common species for campaigns. There is a reason they are going to be in campaign guides, because THEY'RE IN MOST CAMPAIGNS.

You watch, we will see an NPC stat block with a Drow or Orc species traits list added in a campaign guide and we will see a CR change for it and then what, you will say they're wrong now that they did it?

 

[pukunui]

And I disagree. And the DMG guidelines seem to say it might or might not impact CR.

I've used the 2014 monster creation guidelines to adjust existing stat blocks a ton over the past 10 years. I can tell you based on my extensive experience that adding a few points here and there isn't enough to impact CR. It generally has to be a big change - like giving a pirate the ability to cast fireball or something.

The fact that WotC left out any mention of species traits in the 2024 DMG leads me to believe that they don't feel any of them are impactful enough to affect CR.

You watch, we will see an NPC stat block with a Drow or Orc species traits list added in a campaign guide and we will see a CR change for it and then what, you will say they're wrong now that they did it?

If there is specifically an Orc Pirate or a Drow Tough (or the like) in a setting book that is literally just the MM stat block with species traits added and the CR is not the same, then I will admit that I am wrong. However, given the number of times I've seen WotC tell me in their official adventures to use X generic stat block with Y species traits added on for a particular NPC but there's no CR change makes me think this will continue to be the case going forward.

 

[Selas]

A drow is not listed as a creature in the MM or elsewhere in 2024, so far.

Obviously; that's what some are complaining about. That doesn't change that you can compare the old 2014 version when it's available in the free rules.

No, it's whatever NPC block you choose for the species in that moment. Crawford made that darn clear. Drow Pirate is supposed to be an option. Adding species traits according to DMG is supposed to be an option. Guidelines for CR changes are in the DMG but DO NOT COVER THESE KINDS OF SPECIES TRAITS.

Yes he said so, but I am specifically referencing the blocks in the conversion table. The DMG rules do provide enough advice to be able to apply it to the species traits, and that's me taking a quick look and having ZERO experience creating monsters. Also, they specifically say you can take traits from ANY creature in the MM, not just the ones provided

Weird that you excluded Faerie Fire given I only mentioned Faerie Fire and Darkness. And the Pirate, which is the NPC block I mentioned as my Drow, cannot cast either.

I'm just gonna facepalm at the blatant contrarian comment here. Totally forgot about Faerie Fire; no it doesn't change anything--the rules say you can swap spells; moving on.

No, you do not. You're not REPLACING existing NPC blocks, you're ADDING species traits to an existing NPC block. Nothing in the rules says or implies replace. And WOTC does not straight up say that in the video. They just generally claim "you just do it" but they do not address the specific CR issues involved.

I never said anything about replacing traits, you Add Adrenaline Rush to the statblock, as directed by the DMG guidelines, then remove the THP feature. Problem solved. You're being deliberately obtuse at this point when there is enough advice in the guidelines.

 

[Parmandur]

I don't need lore, I need to know what the friggen CR is of a Drow or Orc Pirate which has the species trait of a Drow or Orc added to the Pirate NPC template which does in fact impact critical elements such as AC, Hit Points, Attack and Damage. And they didn't include that analysis at all. The DMG guidance doesn't answer that question for either species, the video doesn't give that analysis for either species, people (when they finally start to directly talk about the species traits involved rather than dodging the question by talking about generalities) disagree about the CR impact or even try to tell people they simply wouldn't add species traits many will obviously want to add, and then we're all left with a huge vague "figure it out for yourself."

The 2014 DMG chart applied ASI and all the traits, and didn't impact CR. Putting in dome PC Species attributes on an NPC won't impact CR.